When A Cable Test Fails Part 1

We walk through what to do when a certification tester returns a fail and why guessing wastes the most time and money. Mike Pennacchi
joins us to break down near-end crosstalk results and show how to prove whether the issue is your settings, your connector, or the cable itself. 

• why certification testing matters for manufacturer warranty work 
• the three most common reasons a NEXT test fails, starting with the wrong test limit 
• how cable type selection can change NVP without changing the test limit 
• why you stop after the first failed test and verify the setup screen 
• how to read NEXT charts to find the failing pair combination 
• how comparing main vs remote results points to which end is bad 
• how Fault Info and HDTDX help locate crosstalk along the cable 
• pin numbers vs pair numbers and why techs mix them up 
• clues for wrong-category connectors and workmanship problems 
• when “your cable may be damaged” means replacement, not retermination 
• how rare manufacturing defects happen and why spool testing sometimes matters 

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Transcript

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Welcome, Updates, And Ways To Support

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Hey War Mike is welcome to another episode of Let's Talk Cabling. This week we're talking about what do you do after your certifier says fail. Welcome to the show where we tackle the tough questions submitted by apprentices, installers, technicians, project foremen, project managers, estimators, designers, IT personnel, even customers. We are connecting at the human level so that we can connect the world. If you're watching this show on YouTube, would you mind hitting the subscribe button and the bell button to be notified when new content is being produced? If you're listening to us on one of the audio podcast platforms, would you mind giving us a five-star reading? Those simple little steps help us take on the algorithm so we can educate, encourage, and enrich the lives of people in the ICT industry. Wednesday night, 6 p.m. Eastern Standard Time, what are you doing? You know I do a live stream on YouTube, TikTok, Instagram, LinkedIn, everywhere I can figure out how to send a live stream to where you get to ask your favorite RCDD, and you know that's me. Your favorite RCD questions on design, installation, certification, credentialing. I even do career path questions. But I can hear you now. But check I'm driving my truck on Wednesday nights at 6 p.m. I don't want to get into that. Breathe in. Breathe out. I record them and you can watch them at your convenience. And finally, while this show is free and will always remain free. If you find value in this content, will you click on that QR code right there? You can buy me a cup of coffee. You can even schedule a one-on-one call with me after hours, of course. You can even buy Let's Talk Cabling merchandise. So let's get a few things out of the way right out of the gate. I am out of LinkedIn jail. Yay! My posts are starting to resonate again. Not quite sure why Chuck got put in LinkedIn jail, but I did. I broke out. So I'm on the run. So you should start seeing my post now again. Hopefully start getting those numbers back up. They took a huge hit because of that. I'm not quite sure why I got banned, but I did. And it's just what happens. Also, don't forget, um, Textgiving is coming up August 23rd through the 25th, where they're doing cabling at the Ronald McDonald House in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Yours truly will be in attendance on Saturday, August 24th. So if you want to go do poop, pull some cable for a good cause and get to meet me, I'll be there. I'll be there pulling cable, turning cable, running the camera, doing whatever they need. So just make sure that you show up.

Why Certification Testing Drives Warranty Work

SPEAKER_02 2:50

One of the most powerful tools that you can have in your toolbox next to your brain, because I think the brain is probably the most powerful, is a certification tester. Now there's certification testers, qualification testers, verification testers. We're talking about certification testers. You are certifying that the cable meets the electrical properties that were set up by the standards or by the manufacturer, and you're testing your cable and you get a pass or fail. The tester that you need to have when you're doing manufacturer warranty projects, because a lot of times they don't allow verification tests. So, of course, you know I had to bring on an expert with me, a repeat, a repeat guest, Mike

Mike’s Path Into Cable Testing

SPEAKER_02 3:29

Benocchi. Mike, how you doing, my friend?

SPEAKER_03 3:31

I am doing fantastic, Chuck. It's great to be here. Great. I think last time we went bananas.

SPEAKER_02 3:37

We did, we did, and I still put that one out there as a short every once in a while. Every time I do that, it always comes up with you know a bunch of views and stuff like that. The banana Ethernet one. That's I love that one.

SPEAKER_03 3:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:49

So why don't you tell us for those who don't know you, for the for the three people who don't know who you are, why don't you tell us who you are and and what makes you such a testing expert?

SPEAKER_03 3:59

My name is Mike Panaki. I own a company in Maple Valley, Washington called Network Protocol Specialists LLC. And you know, it's funny. Uh every once in a while I talk to people kind of about what my career path was that you know, I ended up, I had I started out as a mainframe programmer. I was sitting in a cubicle writing cobalt code. And one day a buddy of mine was dragging a piece of cat three down the hallway. And he I said, Len, what are you doing? He said, I'm putting in a token ring. He said, Man, that sounds more interesting than what I'm doing. So I ended up moving, I was working for the company that owns Kenworth and Peterbelt, and I moved over to the Kenworth plant. And I was the network administrator, which meant that I did pretty much everything short of actually pulling the cable. The electricians insisted on doing that. But I terminated it because at the time we were using 100 meg, and I knew that if they knew we weren't using two pairs in that cable, that they would have figured out a reason to use those. And in uh 2002, I started my own company. And for the last 16 years, we've been doing the fluke CCTT certification training. So that's what I spend most of my days doing today.

SPEAKER_01 5:23

You should join us at Textgiving this year. You get to be a part of something bigger than just another industry event. Textgiving brings together technology professionals, manufacturers, vendors, and volunteers from across North America to use their skills for real impact. This year we're heading to the Philadelphia McDonald's house, and we're shaping up to be our biggest and most ambitious project yet. Together, we'll help upgrade critical technology infrastructure, including networking, security, access control, and more, so they can stay focused on supporting families when they need it most. But it's not just about giving back, it's also an incredible opportunity to network, learn, and work side by side with some of the best people in the industry. Whether you're brand new to the field or season pro, you'll make connections, share knowledge, and get hands-on experience. And that is what tech knowledge is all about. Community over competition. Nearly a million dollars in product and services have already been donated through our TextGiving initiative. So come join us, bring your skills, meet amazing people, and be a part of something that makes a real difference. We'll see you in Philly at Texgiving October 23rd through the 25th.

SPEAKER_02 6:32

Yeah, it's uh it's kind of funny. Most people fall into careers in low voltage, right? Very, very few people, you know, grow up when they're five or six and say, you know what? I want to pull cable when I when I get out of high school, right? In fact, you know, in in Halloween, I've never seen a low voltage Halloween costume on the shelves. I should make one and then put it out there. You should. I can make gazillions of dollars or thirteen dollars, whichever the case.

SPEAKER_03 7:00

Put that in your merch. You could have the the low voltage installer costume.

SPEAKER_02 7:06

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 7:08

Well, you know, and it's funny because I found myself working my way down the protocol stack. So a lot of people start at the bot physical layer and work their way up. And yeah, I spent, I still do a fair amount of Wireshark captures and and trace analysis, but I have found that it's this has been a real fun part of the stack to be in.

SPEAKER_02 7:29

And you it was it was that way for the longest time. You know, the cable industry used to be the launch pad to other careers, network engineers, PBX engineers, you know, project managers, estimators. But you know, I've been talking to more and more people lately who are actually coming back to pulling cable because they they it's easier, there's less headaches, and and in today's environment, especially with data centers, there's some people making some pretty good money pulling cable in in data centers right now. So it's not nothing to be looked down on. We're you know, we are one of the trades that are short on a bunch of people, and uh, and I that's been one of the main emphasis of this podcast was to get people in this industry because we need people in this industry. So there you

What NEXT Measures On Twisted Pair

SPEAKER_02 8:12

go. So near and crosstalk. Okay. Near and cross-talk. When you see near-and-crosstalk, what is that tester really telling you?

SPEAKER_03 8:21

Well, what we're doing is we're taking a look at how much how much of the signal is bleeding over from one pair to another. And so when it comes down to it, with our twisted pair cable, the whole focus is to twist the pairs, twist them at different rates, and reduce that crosstalk between those pairs. And when we say near end, we're taking a look at what's the crosstalk nearest to where we're sending it in. And that's important because that's where the signal is the strongest. As we move down the cable, we see that signal gets attenuated and we have loss. So the crosstalk really becomes less and less the further we move down the cable. But we are sending from both ends. And so when I see that we are failing near-end crosstalk, to me, that's one of two things. That is either there's a well, actually, I'm gonna re I'm gonna change that. It's one of three things.

Avoiding Fails Caused By Setup Errors

SPEAKER_03 9:16

And one the first one is they use the wrong test limit.

SPEAKER_02 9:20

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 9:21

And one of the things that we find with the test, especially with the fluke tester, and that's where I spend most of my time working, is on that tester, if we change the cable type, in fact, let me show you. So if I come over here and I were to go into my versive and I were to select, uh, I were to say, I want to create a new test, and it defaults to a Cat 6A U UTP test, and it's doing a TIA Cat 6A permanent link. And one thing I think is important is it's now the default test is now plus PoE. Because let's face it, if you're running copper today, you're probably going to be running PoE across it. So it adds a few seconds to the test, but now you have that confidence to know that that cable is going to support PoE down the road. But the thing that happens is if I come in here and I select my cable type, I've got a few different cable types in here. And one thing that just makes me sad as an instructor is when someone goes, Well, there's not very many cable types. And I go, Man, it's like a buffet. There's always more. You got to come down here and hit the more button. And then we see, you know, we've got our generic, we've got manufacturers. So I can go in and pick the specific cable for that manufacturer so that we know that we're using the right settings. But the thing is, when I change this cable type from Cat 6A to Cat 6, it changes our nominal velocity of propagation. But notice it doesn't change the test limit. And I've had a lot of people go, well, that's stupid. Why don't you change the test limit? It's I don't know what you want to do. I don't know, I don't know if you're testing 10 gig, I don't know if you're doing a permanent link, a channel, an MPTL. I we can't make any assumptions. And there was, uh I was out doing a uh uh some training at a car manufacturer in Detroit, and a couple of the maintenance electricians came in and they had their arms crossed. And I was doing training on a different fluke product, but they said, Do you know anything about this DSX cable analyzer? I said, Yeah, I know a little bit about it. They don't know I'm not an I'm an expert, I'm not an expert at body language, but I can tell you they were not happy. And I uh I said, What can I do? What can I help you with? And they said, It's failing all of our cable. And I'm thinking, well, maybe it's not the tester, but you know, I got to be nice. And I said, Show me, show me your test setup. And they showed me a test setup and they had the cable type set to cat 5e, but they had the test limit set to cat 6a, and that cable is just never going to pass it. And this is one of the reasons why I think it's important that people take the time and get trained on how to use this equipment, because nothing makes me more sad than when somebody tests all the cable and every cable fails, and they turn it into their project manager, and it was that the test setup was wrong. And that's to me, that's inexcusable.

SPEAKER_02 12:21

Well, you sent it to a manufacturer and the manufacturer clicked it back, and now you got egg going your face because usually by the time the manufacturer sees it, you're off the job site, and they're gonna kick you back and say, nope, sorry, we don't accept this. You had it set incorrectly. Now you got to go back and retest with people sitting at their desk, which takes more time. And I'm I used to be a project manager, I used to be an estimator. I know for a fact that when we build out estimates on projects, we only put in there to test each cable twice, not twice.

SPEAKER_03 12:56

Exactly. And that's, you know, in a way, when it comes to training and so on, that's where I say my training really should be free, and it works out not costing your company money in the end, because all you have to do is save one instance like that. In fact, you only have to save a couple of hours of an instance like that to cover the cost of learning how to do things right. And and that's that's the key. So when we come in and we set that up, we we want to make sure that everything is set up properly. And if that first cable fails, stop. Yes, you know, don't don't keep going. Right. And but when I see near-end crosstalk failures, I'm thinking a lot of times that's gonna be either the connector or it's gonna be the cable. And so then it comes down to which one is it, right? How do we know which one that

Pinpointing The Bad End Of A Link

SPEAKER_03 13:50

is? If we were to come in and I've got a whole bunch of test results in here that we use in class. And so if we started out with connector, now I tell people right here, it says connector, right? So we know that it's a problem with the connector in this case. But one of the first things I'll do is come in and take a look at my performance. And you know, we see, you know, we've got our cable length. In fact, one of the very first things I look at is right up here at the top. If I click on that, it tells me how the test was set up. So now I know, did they set the test up? Is it worth me continuing on to look at this? Or do we have a problem where they they selected the wrong test limit or the wrong cable type? And if that isn't right, let's stop, let's go back, let's fix that, let's get that going right. But here I can see that I had a marginal failure on near-end crosstalk. And I think we'll we'll get into marginal a little bit later. But you know, in this case, a marginal fail is a fail. And that's you know, there's there's we've got the star, it tells us we were close, but still failed. So when I come in and I take a look at my next, what this is doing is it's showing me the crosstalk across the frequency spectrum that we're testing for all the pair combinations, and it turns into a lot of information. So a couple of the really interesting things that we can do when we get in here is one, I can hit the pair button and it will immediately take me to the pair combination that's failing. So right now it's saying that we failed at 229 megahertz on pair one, two, three, six. Now, when we come in and we look at that one, the frequency doesn't do really anything for me. I I it'd be fun if I could tell you, oh, it's 229 megahertz and this tells right. It it doesn't. I it's telling me that that pair's failing, and that's my the big thing I'm looking at. The other thing that's interesting here, and I always love the the comments I get in class of, well, I I was told or I heard, like, this is gonna be good. And and one of the ones they they said was, I heard that when a copper cable fails, we need to switch the main and remote and test again. And I said, Well, that would be uh way too much work because the modules are the same in the main and remote, and we're running the test both directions. So what's neat is if I want to jump to the other end, I've got this main button right there. I can jump to the other end of the connection. And the interesting thing here is that pass is passing at that frequency because you see the you see the margin. Yes. In fact, if we look at all of our pairs, we're passing. So if we only looked at this from the main end, this is a pass. But when I look at it from the remote end, it's a fail. So one thing that tells me, because it's near end crosstalk, that this problem is probably closer to the remote than it is the main. So so now I know a few things. I know that I'm most interested in pair one, two, three, six, and I'm interested in the remote end. So I go back, and whenever we are marginal or we fail, we create fault info.

Using Fault Info And HDTDX

SPEAKER_03 17:17

Now, fault info, what it does is it takes this long history of test results that Fluke has, and it compares the what we're seeing here with what they've seen in the past, and they make an estimate of what's going on. Now, it will estimate what it thinks is most likely the cause. So this may not be the only problem, but this is the worst one. So, right here it says, hey, their problem is next. Your problem is, you know, check the connector at the remote end. All right, well, in most cases, I'm gonna go out to the remote end, I'm gonna inspect that connector, I'm gonna see what's going on. Now, where it's getting this information is the HD TDX analyzer, and that's our high definition time domain crosstalk. So we are looking down the length of the cable and we're sending pulses in, we're measuring how long it takes here, how long it takes that crosstalk to come back on the other pairs, and it's using that as a way to map it out almost like an OTDR, but for copper. And so when we come in and we look at the HDTDX, we see where our crosstalk is occurring within the cable. Now, this is showing me all my pair combinations. So again, it's good data, but it's a lot of data. So, what I'll do is I'll hit pair until I get to one, two, three, six.

SPEAKER_02 18:48

And for those who don't know, I gotta point this out. There's a difference between pin numbers and pair numbers. Huge difference.

SPEAKER_03 18:55

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 18:55

So pins one, two, three, and six is the orange and the green pairs, right? Yes. A lot of technicians confuse, they think, oh, pin pair one and pair two, that's gonna be the blue and the orange pair. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. There's a difference between pin numbers and pair numbers. So I got to point that out because uh I get that question a lot actually in classes.

SPEAKER_00 19:15

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Pair Numbers, Pin Numbers, And Workmanship Clues

SPEAKER_03 20:03

Yeah, and that that's an excellent point because in this case, and that's that's where it's important that we get the pair, the Ethernet pairs or twisted pairs on the right pins, too. Because with a continuity tester, it may say you did an okay job, but it's going to cause us a lot of trouble down the road. So now what I'm looking at is I'm looking at the amount of crosstalk at these various points along the length of the cable. So I see that at 46 feet, I've got 48.22% crosstalk. Now, what I'm looking for is on a cable over 50 feet, I'm looking for 35% or less. So this is more than that. On a cable that is less or 50 feet or less, like this one, that goes down to 30%. So in the worst case, I'd want to see it down here.

SPEAKER_02 21:01

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_03 21:02

So this is the size.

SPEAKER_02 21:03

Where do you get those numbers from?

SPEAKER_03 21:04

The 50% of the 30%. Those are those are numbers that Fluke has worked out uh over the years. And it it really comes into once we get over those values, that's when we start seeing the cables fail.

SPEAKER_02 21:17

Gotcha. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 21:18

And so historical data. Yes. And you might be able to squeeze get over that just a little bit, but uh one of the things about crosstalk is it's additive. That if I have a little bit of crosstalk here and a little bit of crosstalk there, and a little bit of crosstalk there, it adds into a lot of crosstalk. So I could have a bunch of crosstalk in one spot, and you're going, well, it's not failing. Well, that's because everything else looks really good. And so I had a manufacturer one time, I was had some trouble with their cable. And the first thing they said is, You don't know how to put connectors on. It's like, wow, that's a bold statement. And I was able to go. Back with the HD T DX chart and show my connectors were good. Their cable wasn't. And so in this case, we've got good crosstalk at the main end. And the main is always going to be on the left, and the remote is always going to be on the right. So at the main end, that's great. Good termination. Remote end, not so good right there. Now, as I go through the pairs, I see that some of them are amazing. I mean, the crosstalk on this one is spectac on one, two, four, five, spectacular. One, two, seven, eight. Looks like we got, well, one, two is one of our problem pairs. So if it's untwisted too far, it could be affecting 7.8 as well. And we do see we've got 48.84 there at the remote end. Uh here with 3645. 3645 is a very important pair combination because when we think about how an Ethernet jack is put together, we've got four or five in the middle.

SPEAKER_02 23:10

We've got three six on each side of it.

SPEAKER_03 23:13

And so oftentimes, if somebody uses the wrong category of connector, we will see 3645 fail first. So that is, it'll take a nose dive. When we looked at that crosstalk chart, you'll see that it'll like if they used a cat 5e jack, it'll start falling off at just over 100 megahertz.

SPEAKER_02 23:35

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_03 23:35

So so if you if I see 3645 is the bad pair and it's taking a big nose dive on the crosstalk chart, that is a good indication that somebody has put the wrong category of connector on the end. Um this this one looks like workmanship. Now, here in the cable, we're seeing some crosstalk. Our threshold in the cable is we don't want to see the crosstalk exceed 10%.

SPEAKER_02 24:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 24:07

And if it does, we don't want it to happen more than four times. So here I've got one, two, three. So it's questionable, but it's not enough to cause us to fail. So without a doubt, if I was going to say, where would I want to spend my time resolving the issue with this one? It's going to be that connector at the remote end. I'm going to go out and I'm going to take a look at it, see how it looks.

SPEAKER_02 24:36

Yeah, I missed that when you pulled it up that the cable was 50 feet long. I missed that because as you're saying, when I saw the 46 feet, I'm thinking, well, that's that's going to be like just outside the telecom room, about 20 feet down. So I didn't I didn't catch it, it was only a 50-foot cable. Now it makes sense.

When The Cable Itself Is The Problem

SPEAKER_03 24:52

So let's take a look at one where next fails because it's the cable. So in this case, I come in and because I was on the fault info screen before, it takes me to the fault info screen. And it tells me right off, dude, your cable may be damaged. And so that's not the one we want to see. Because when we see your cable may be damaged, uh oftentimes there's not a lot we can do about that other than replace the cable.

SPEAKER_02 25:22

Right.

SPEAKER_03 25:23

Now, if I click on this, it says, look, we're seeing a lot of crosstalk between 3, 6, 7, 8. Cable appears to be the primary cause of the next failure. Reterminating the connector may not improve this result. So just going in and fixing one of these connectors isn't going to do it. Now, if I go back and I look at my performance, I see that you know this one's 105 feet long. Uh, everything's looking good. If we look at next, it looks good except this one little dip right here. But I mean, that's all it took to fail us. And so when I click on that, I see again 256 megahertz doesn't really mean anything to me, but there's my 3678. So it does back up what fault info is telling me, and that is that is my problem pair. Now, if I go to fault info and we failed crosstalk, so now I'm gonna come in and take a look at my HD TDX analyzer again, and I am going to find 3678 right there. Oh now, I didn't want this to cross the 10% threshold more than four times. It's all above it. And it's all above it. So this is a case where this cable is messed up, and we are getting a lot of crosstalk across there. Now, if I look at all my pairs, let's see. Let's go back here. What I would see is yeah, I've got a lot of crosstalk here at the main end, and I've got a spike of crosstalk here. But again, this prioritizes it, and it says you can re-terminate those two ends till they tell your tool gets stalled, but you're not gonna end up fixing this problem. And in this case, this was actually a cable manufacturing problem, and uh pair 7.8 wasn't twisted consistently. So this was in this case, this was brand new cable. This cable wasn't it was right off the spool. I pulled it off the spool, put connectors on the end, and it failed. And it turned out took a little while to find out, but uh the machine that was twisting pair seven eight wasn't doing it consistently. And so we were running into too many cases where it was right next to three six.

SPEAKER_02 27:51

And a lot of people don't realize that you know mistakes by manufacturers making cable happens. I mean, the manufacturers strive for what's called the four nines, right? 99.99% accuracy. But if you're manufacturing a billion feet of cable a year and you multiply that 0.01 by a billion, that means there's some cable going out that might not be might not meet the standards.

SPEAKER_03 28:16

So it can be well, and that's but it's kind of rare.

Manufacturing Defects, Spool Tests, And The Half-Inch Rule

SPEAKER_03 28:19

I just I just had somebody call me last week and they said um week before, they they said we need to do spool testing. Now, spool testing is something that we do with fiber oftentimes, but it's not something we really do with copper.

SPEAKER_02 28:33

I've never heard of it.

SPEAKER_03 28:34

And and but contractually, they needed to test the spools of fiber before they put them in. And so I went in and I looked up there is a test limit that we can use that's designed to work with the lab adapter, but we can use the channel adapter instead. And I did a quick video on it, and I kind of got beat up on it because people said, Well, you know, nobody ever does this. I said, Well, somebody did. Somebody, this video means a lot to one person. And, you know, if you don't end up having to do this, that's great. But uh, in this case, we would have caught that. We would have seen that that cable was bad on the spool.

SPEAKER_02 29:13

Like I said, it doesn't happen often, but all it takes is once. Because what happens is a lot of technicians, for near and crosstalk, the first thing they're gonna go look at is they're gonna go visually inspect the connectors. They're gonna look to make sure that uh they weren't unterminated too much or they didn't get punched down. Yeah, this is where you get that whole half-inch rule, right? You know, Sanders says you can you can untwist up to half of an inch. A lot of technicians misapply that rule and they think it's jacket removal, but it's actually pair twist. But if you have your jacket coming up to the connector point, you're not gonna untwist more than a half inch of your pairs. You're just not gonna untrue. Exactly. So that's why I don't ever argue that, right? So they they they do those next two things, you know, and that's why I said, you know, it you gotta think outside the box sometimes because it's not always the easiest thing. And and I think cable manufacturers probably one of the one of the ones that's the hardest because that's that that involves most of the cable techs that I deal with wouldn't be able to look at that test result and and say, Mike, hey, this is a this is a this is a manufacture problem. They'd have to attack Fluke, you know, say, hey, I need an engineer, you know, or I hey, I need what's what's the what's the I need the bat phone in the mic.