Why Good Techs Quit | The ICT Industry Has A Leadership Problem Not A Labor Problem

We challenge the “nobody wants to work” narrative and argue the real gap in low voltage is leadership and culture, not available talent. We break down how to hire for potential, build training that sticks, and create trust so good people choose to stay. 
• hiring for teachability, integrity, accountability, and curiosity over perfect resumes 
• why “potential is powerful” and how experience-only hiring shrinks the talent pool 
• spotting coachability early through questions, feedback history, and problem-solving stories 
• red flags that break team culture, especially constant blame and refusal to learn 
• recruiting sources beyond the usual pool, including manufacturing, logistics, military, and customer service 
• making structured cabling feel like a real career by highlighting impact in hospitals, schools, airports, data centers, and smart buildings 
• training as both a recruiting tool and a retention strategy, plus the damage done by broken training promises 
• how standards create clarity and confidence, not micromanagement 
• career paths that show what comes next, and why the first 90 days shape long-term commitment 
• culture drivers employees actually measure, especially trust and consistent recognition 
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Would you click on that QR code right there? You can schedule a 15-minute one-on-one call with me after hours, of course. You can even buy Let's Talk Cabling merchandise. 

Transcript

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Welcome And Quick Housekeeping

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hey Wild Monkeys, welcome to another episode of Let's Talk Cabling. This episode, we're talking about how to attract, train, and maybe even make your employees better. If you're watching this show on YouTube, would you hit the subscribe button and the bell button to be notified when new content is being produced? If you're listening to us on one of the audio podcast platforms, would you mind giving us a five-star rating? Those simple little steps help us take on the algorithm so we can educate, encourage, and enrich the lives of people in the ICT industry. Wednesday night, 6 p.m. Eastern Standard Time, what are you doing? You know I do a live stream on TikTok, Instagram, YouTube, Facebook, everywhere I can figure out to send a live stream to where you get to ask your favorite RCDD. And you know I'm your favorite. Your favorite RCDD questions on installation, design, project management, credentialing. I even do career path questions. But I can hear you now, but you can drive my check. Breathe in, breathe out, relax. I record them and you can watch them at your convenience. And finally, while this show is free and will always remain free, would you click on that QR code right there? You can schedule a 15-minute one-on-one call with me after hours, of course. You can even buy Let's Talk Cabling merchandise.

Labor Shortage Or Leadership Gap

SPEAKER_01 2:04

So, this this week, as I mentioned, I want to talk about. I'm so tired of looking on the internet, looking at low voltage sites, and listening to people complain about there's nobody out here who wants to work. Yeah, this young generation, rah-rah, rah. The ICT industry does not have a labor shortage, it has a leadership and a cultural challenge. Okay, there's good people out there, right? They but companies just have to know how to find them, how to develop them, and maybe even give them a reason to stay. So, I guess I said, you know, we're explaining this shortage. So I'm bringing on an expert tonight. A I think she's been on the show twice before, so this might be her third time on. Heck, I don't know, I lose track. Um, but she's been on before, and she's gonna come on, she's gonna help explain to us because she's got some in-depth knowledge on this whole thought, this whole subject on how to find employees and maybe even develop into not just laborers, skilled professionals, and build a good workplace environment for people. Shelly, welcome back to the show, my friend. How are you doing?

SPEAKER_03 3:07

Well, hi, thanks so much for having me back. It's great to see you.

SPEAKER_01 3:11

Same here, same here. Uh, we we made it through the technical difficulties.

SPEAKER_02 3:17

Yeah, for people in technology, we sure didn't do that real well, did we?

SPEAKER_01 3:21

To connect to the like like I was telling you before I hit repeat. Yeah, before I tell like I was telling you before I hit record, I am seriously considering becoming a Luddite. I'm seriously considering it because goats don't goats don't talk back to you.

SPEAKER_03 3:34

Well, and thank you for explaining what that is because I did not I didn't have a clue. So thank you for explaining.

SPEAKER_01 3:40

I don't know where I picked up that term actually, but a Luddite is a Luddite is basically somebody who's anti-technology, and I'm talking about severe anti-technology, no cell phone, no computer, no internet. I mean, they just think of it like I don't want to say an omnis people or Luddites, but think of that kind of no technology. That's that's what that kind of boils down

Hiring For Attitude Not Certifications

SPEAKER_01 4:00

to. So as you heard, you know, the the core idea of tonight's show is I want to talk about you know finding people, um, and then also about maybe how do you identify somebody with that right attitude, right? And how do you give that how do you get them to become valuable? So, you know, one of the things I noticed when I was searching the website, one thing, especially on on uh on y'all's website, um, you say specifically, and I love this. Um, that you no experience is necessary for some of your positions. That got my attention because you know, we're so used to we're so used to people saying, oh, well, we want somebody with no experience, but you have to have this certification. Well, wait a minute. How do you have that certification with no experience, right? Um, so what qualities do you look for for someone who may not know about structured cabling yet?

SPEAKER_03 4:46

Well, that's a great question. Uh, I think things that we look for are teachable, teachable people because and it's not teachable in the way you would think. It's like you can teach technical skills. And clearly IS has had an amazing training program for decades, right? Uh, I wasn't the person that started it, you know, Don Fish and I started it, you know, over 40 years ago. So, but it's been built upon, and we know we we can teach technical skills. That's not the question. It's much harder to teach attitude, integrity, accountability, um, and honestly, a genuine desire to learn. Uh, someone that shows up prepared and ready to communicate well and taking pride in their work, things like that. Um, those qualities often predict long-term success better than just technical knowledge.

SPEAKER_01 5:33

And you guys do a great job on training people because you guys are always at every Bixie conference. Well, I don't want to say every Bixie conference, you're at every Bixie conference I attend because I see you guys there all the time. And you guys all you always have people there participating in the Bixie Cable Skills Challenge, and those aren't people who just walked in off the street, so you must be doing something right. So in this industry, we all we often say to people, you know, I want somebody with experience, but how how does that mindset sometimes cause us to overlook the people with potential, but maybe not the experience?

SPEAKER_03 6:05

Yeah, I and I think you might have just hit on what the heart of this conversation could be about the whole time is um, you know, experience is valuable. And I like to say, but potential is powerful because if you only hire the people who've already done this, you have just limited the talent pool tremendously, right? So some of the best professionals in our industry started with a little or no industry experience, and they succeeded because they were willing to work, grow, uh, learn. And the big part was they were willing to learn, um, and they and they wanted to work hard to achieve that.

SPEAKER_01 6:40

You mentioned uh in your one of your previous answers that uh you want somebody who's teachable. How do you figure out somebody's teachable before you spend a bunch of money in training them?

SPEAKER_03 6:55

You know, a real good indicator is curiosity. If they are curious, if they are looking to they ask the questions, right? Um we look for examples of how they've learned something new, how they've overcome challenges, accepted feedback. Um, those also help too, but that curiosity is key. It's if they can they want to know, well, how does that go together? And well, if I do this, then where does that come out over here? And and they really want to to uh expand their knowledge base. I think then we know, okay, this is somebody that that wants, you know, knowledge is power, but they need to want it. That's the mindset.

SPEAKER_01 7:33

You know that's gonna become a future sound bite, right? I heard it. You said knowledge is power. I'm gonna say that one. I I got I got Chris saying that too.

SPEAKER_03 7:43

Well, you know, and I think it just demonstrates a mindset that you're looking for. Right. You know, and if people genuinely want to know, then you've gotta, you know, you know, your odds are better that they're going to be teachable.

Sponsor Message And Ad Spot

SPEAKER_00 7:55

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Red Flags And Team Fit

SPEAKER_01 8:42

Yeah, absolutely. You gotta be constant learning this interest because it is always changing. Are there any red flags that maybe like a hiring manager should be looking for that maybe might say that person might not be a good fit for field work or maybe for the team culture?

SPEAKER_03 8:58

I have always my experience has been a huge red flag would be someone who's constantly blaming others for the past challenges or issues. Um, another is that they're unwilling to then learn or accept feedback from those instances. So that one's a double-edged sword for sure.

SPEAKER_01 9:17

Oh, absolutely it is. And and I've I've obviously admitted many times. I've admitted on this show when I've made mistakes. Because if you have if your heart's breathing and you're sucking in oxygen, you're probably going to make a mistake. So why not just own up to it and move on? That just shows that you're fallible like everybody else, you know.

SPEAKER_03 9:35

Well, and I think what's important there too is is also if they are willing to start listening to feedback, then you know, that that indicates professionalism and respect for what they, you know, what somebody with more experience, like a veteran person, would be telling them. Um, and that can give you some keys into a good solid employee there too. But that you know, our success depends heavily upon collaboration. So if they can they can take that feedback and do something with it positively, that's another opportunity right there to grow. Um, and that that just keeps them going into the next level and the next level.

SPEAKER_01 10:12

You know, our industry, I often claim that with the the low voltage tree, right? There's the branch for structured cabling, the branch for fault managed power system, the branch for AV, distributed antenna systems, and and all that other stuff. So that we have many, many things that that we could be doing in our industry. How do you recruit for somebody? Because you guys IES does a lot of this stuff. For some other companies aren't as successful as IES, what are some things that they can do to maybe try to attract people with a wide range of skills that's needed now?

SPEAKER_03 10:45

It's true. I mean, I'm just you made me reflect for a moment about, you know, I've been here almost 14 years and just the differences now that we recruit for, you know, there's there's terms, there's there's whole segments of our business that we'd never, you know, we never even had as part of our vocabulary 14 years ago. So you're right, it it does take a long, uh kind of a range of uh technical roles to make what we do happen. And I think because they do differ so much across specialties, there are going to be standards that that you're going to adhere to or look at. Um, but I think you know you have to have more expectations around safety, around professionalism, around quality, around teamwork, because those things remain constant. That doesn't matter what the specialty is, right? Um you you hire for both competence and character because both matter equally. But uh, you know, those other key things in their soft skills, right? The professionalism, the teamwork attitude, and and sometimes that's hard to hard to come across or hard to ask, you know, in a way that you're gonna get a great answer.

SPEAKER_01 11:53

I I love that because you're you know, I never really thought about that before, but you're 100% correct. You know, the the the professionalism, the commitment to safety, those you do every single day. But physically you might be pulling fiber today or putting in a DAS station tomorrow, you know. I never thought about that before. Never thought about before. Um, so one of the things, you know, where can where can companies look for talent? I love the fact that Bixie fall, not the one, not the Bixie Beyond that's coming up in a few weeks or a month or whatever, but the fall one, I mean the winter one, it just happened. They had high school kids there to try to expose them to the the the trade. Um, where where are some places that companies can look at to find talented people?

SPEAKER_03 12:37

I don't mean this as a cop-out chuck, but everywhere, almost everywhere. Uh there are talented people in manufacturing, in logistics, in military service, in customer service. Oh my gosh, if you work customer service in retail, there's some skills there that that teach you some things, you definitely could be in the right mindset to thrive in the ICT

Where To Find Hidden Talent

SPEAKER_03 12:58

industry.

SPEAKER_01 12:58

This is a question I didn't have written for us in the fans. I just curious what your thoughts.

unknown 13:03

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 13:03

How do you deal with people? Now I'm not saying in this any any one generation, but there's a lot of people everywhere from from boomers to generation alphas who who they want to become content creators, they want to be YouTube stars. No, no pun intended because of what I do. Because I have a day job. I have a day job, so this is my my nighttime gig. So how do you how do you attract people who are they're all they want to do is they want to become that famous YouTube star and and they may not necessarily want to work with their hand.

SPEAKER_03 13:36

They're probably not applying.

SPEAKER_01 13:38

True. Look at that. That's why you make the big bucks. I like that.

SPEAKER_03 13:44

Thanks. Uh I but however, uh, you know, adopting a social media plan to recruit on social media, you know, you'll you'll reach people that are on there, and maybe there is something that would strike a chord.

SPEAKER_01 13:57

Yeah, or or hire them to run your social media account. There you go. That's one way of doing it. So I really think our industry needs a lot more young people. I yeah, I don't remember the stats verbatim off the top of my head, but I do I've heard it many times. For every 10 people who retire, there's five to replace them. And I've heard all variations of that number and stuff like that. Um, so how do we make it sound this industry sound attractive? Or it's it's a real career, not just a job.

SPEAKER_03 14:27

Everything we do in our life, anything in modern life is connected to a technology infrastructure. So I think it's we highlight, look, everything from hospital schools, airports, data centers, wireless networks, smart buildings, they all depend on what we do. So it's not just a job. It is a career with tremendous opportunity. And newsflash, technology isn't going. So again, we spoke a moment ago about how the industry has evolved in the last decade and a half that I've seen it. Um, it's going to continue that. It almost feels like our industry is evolving even faster now with all of the new breakthroughs. Uh, so there's tremendous opportunity here. If people are willing to put the work in and learn it, it's a solid career.

SPEAKER_01 15:19

Yeah, the this industry really attracts people who get a lot of satisfaction, either a working with their hands or the satisfaction of seeing that they build something and see it work. That you can see a lot in coding and you know, people code sophomore, stuff like that, too. But you know, with us, we go out there, we pull cable, turn a cable, and it sounds kind of boring to somebody outside of the industry. And and don't get me wrong, there are days it can be boring, right? There are days, but you know what happens is, and I I I've told this story before on the show. I took the grandkids to DC one year for a vacation because my family lives in the DC area, so we were cutting through downtown DC, and I was like, Poppy wired that building, poppy wire debt building, poppy wire debt building, and they go, We get it, poppy. You wired all of DC. I'm like, Well, not quite all of it, but you know, those buildings I showed you. So those people get satisfaction knowing that they were part of something bigger than themselves. But you can't do that without training.

Training That Drives Retention

SPEAKER_01 16:14

You can't do that without training from your from your perspective. How does training connect to employee retention?

SPEAKER_03 16:21

Well, being that that's where I spent a good deal of my career in the industry, um, I will maybe flip that. Well, not flip it, I'll add to it. All right, is that okay if I add to that a little bit? Absolutely. Training connects, it does connect to retention for sure, but it also is part of recruiting too. Uh think about it. If you're a job seeker, if you can see that a company has a great training program, because maybe you are coming in with no experience. I think uh as a job seeker, I would be looking for that because I would say, oh, okay, there is a solid program, a documented, proven program with this organization that shows that they're willing to teach me what I need to know. For on the flip, you know, on the other side of for retention, people stay where they can grow. So if they can see that an employer is not just about what I can produce today, they're invested in help me in helping me be able to do that, whatever the next iteration of the technology is. That's a powerful reason to stay. And people stay where they can grow.

SPEAKER_01 17:29

There's a lot of motivators in our industry. Some people are motivated by money, some people motivated by titles, some people motivated by learning and training more. You know, it's you know, I was that kind of person. Show me, show me, you know, how you're gonna train me, how you can make me better. One of the worst things a company can do is hire somebody and say, oh yeah, you know, we'll well, we'll put you through the the Bixie program or the FOA program or or we'll train you on this or train you on that, and then not do it. That absolutely kills kills retention. So you gotta be able to support it. What does other than obviously if you make a commitment, you do it. What are some other ways that that support can actually look like to the field?

SPEAKER_03 18:11

You know, I feel that people leave when they don't feel valued. Or supported or respected or see a future within the organization. So leadership has the opportunity there to really show that that what their company stands for backs that up. Um and it isn't just love service. And uh people want opportunities that have purpose and and strong leadership, and that is a perfect moment for leaders to step up and and be able to demonstrate it.

SPEAKER_01 18:45

You know, our industry functions on codes and standards and big C best practices and and even good companies, the the platinum level companies like IES, they create their own manuals and their own their own standards for how to lay out jacks and how to terminate stuff. How do how does your own internal standards do you think contribute to keeping employees instead of just controlling them?

SPEAKER_03 19:11

I think standards create clarity, right? You want to understand what you're about to go out and have be responsible for, right? If this is my job, I want to know that this means this, and I have to do step one, step two, step three. This is safe, this is unsafe, this is good quality, this is bad quality. Standards gives you a very clear way to show those things. Um, because employees will perform best when expectations are consistent and very clearly defined. Um and that's where you'll find success. And I think that it helps create confidence. You don't have the uncertainty, now you have the confidence, and you can go out there and do a great job.

SPEAKER_01 19:53

It's funny when you say clearly defined. My first boss, Courtney Matthews from Custom Computer Cable in Virginia, that was his favorite thing. Clearly defined task assignment. I heard his voice when you said that. But you're right, you know, when you have when you have that's why we'll that's why we have standards, it's to make sure everybody does work the same way. And company standards can also meet or exceed those standards. But the beautiful thing on the backside of that is it kind of it kind of helps to identify the people who might need additional training or might just need to, you know, seek opportunities outside the company if they're just not willing to do it the the the correct way that's that's brought success to to the company.

SPEAKER_03 20:31

I I agree with that, and I think it, you know, it is a great industry, and we do want to give as many people who are interested in it an opportunity, and that's again with the training and things like that. But you're right that it's not, we can't be everything to everybody. So there are people that aren't gonna like it, and they're gonna, you know, that's okay. That's okay. They can go off and cure cancer or whatever they're they're destined to go do. You know, we we can we can be okay with that, but we want to give as many people the right opportunity as we can and give them a clearly defined blueprint of what their job today looks like, and then hopefully training of a career path that can show them what it'll look like tomorrow.

Career Paths And Strong Onboarding

SPEAKER_01 21:12

I'm gonna give you another question that wasn't in our pre-arranged list of questions, but I know you can handle it. So I'll give you an example. So I was a project manager running a project, and we were going through our yearly reviews, bringing each technician in one by one and talking to them and telling about their performance and asking about where they wanted to go and all this stuff. And we had this one technician in there, he was a project foreman, and and so my boss is kind of helping me because it was my first time as a project manager. And he's so he's kind of asking the question. He asked the guy, goes, Well, where do you want to be in 10 years? And the guy without a without skipping a beat, pulling cable, I'm fine where I'm at. I don't I don't want to go anywhere. I'm like, I mean personally, I'm not saying there's nothing wrong with that, but me personally, I gotta grow. If I'm if I master a skill set, I want to. Take on a news kid that challenges me, right? So, how can a company that comes across somebody that's in that kind of a mindset to either maybe get them to see the light, hey, maybe I want to grow into these capacities, or do you just say that's fine and just keep them doing what you want? What would you say to how to deal with that kind of a scenario?

SPEAKER_03 22:20

I've had that scenario, and my answer is that is fine because we need people who are solid and are going to deliver every single day. And if they're good with that, absolutely. Because there are people that are going to look and go, look, I've seen the boss's job. I don't want it because I want to coach my kids' little league team and I want to be available for classes that I'm going to take. You know, my wife and I are taking cooking classes, you know, whatever it is. Quality of life matters. And at the end of the day, hey, we need solid tech twos, leads, whatever. And if they're good staying there, God bless. That's fine. And keep them, we're just going to keep them happy too.

SPEAKER_01 23:00

Yeah, see, that's somebody I would struggle with. I'm just being honest. I would struggle with somebody like that. I would probably leave them there and nurse and you know, let them function stuff, but I just don't I don't understand that process. Not that it's wrong, it's just that's not the way that I'm that I'm wired.

SPEAKER_03 23:14

Well, I mean, I feel like if you obviously you present the opportunity and they can see that you know you've got a published career path and what this is what it would take to do this and that if they're interested in it, they have every opportunity to do it. No one's gonna make them do it, right?

SPEAKER_01 23:30

Well, you hit the nail on the head. Everyone wants to become a project manager until they become a project manager, and then they want to go back to the field, right? Because they don't really they think uh the project manager is sitting at the office talking on the phone, typing on the computer. They don't talk about the stresses and and getting the phone call. Oh, what that cable tray that you needed yesterday? Guess what? It's on backboard, won't be in for two weeks. So now you gotta figure out where to put that crew for the next couple weeks so you don't lose the productivity on that job and and then still bring everything under budget, under labor budget. And they don't understand that all the bag side of that stuff, you know. Let's like I said, pay no attention to that person behind the curtain kind of thing.

SPEAKER_03 24:10

There's a lot that happens behind the scenes, and uh and and you've probably experienced this. I know I have with people over the years of they get promoted into the oh, I'm gonna be this, or I'm gonna get it to have the opportunity for this new role that was created in you know, it's the higher promotion. And you talk to them a couple weeks ago, they're like, I had no idea what happened behind the scenes. You know, it's there's a whole lot of moving parts that not everybody sees.

SPEAKER_01 24:38

Oh, absolutely, absolutely. And that's that's not just the project management level, that's estimating, that's coming leadership, that's everything, that whole ball of wax. And you know, a lot of people get a glimpse of that because you know I spent a lot of time in in social media, like on face, uh like on Low Voltage Nation Facebook group and a bunch of others. And and I see it all the time, you know, people say, 'Well, how do you price this? How do you price that?' And you can tell they're technicians right out of the field, and you know, good for that for trying to expand their horizons, but that's the behind the behind the scenes stuff that people don't think about that happens that has to happen for that person to be able to have a job pulling that cable, you know. Um, you mentioned earlier you're talking about we were talking about um bringing in people with no experience and stuff like that. What would a good career path look like for someone who's starting as a helper?

SPEAKER_03 25:23

Um, I don't know. We're going to I'll like it, I'll talk in generalities about career paths. I think I think a good career path shows what comes next, right? What skills do they need to develop? What opportunities are available? Uh people are more likely than to stay engaged and see a future. So, you know, it's beyond just the current role. Again, here's what, oh, if I take this class and this is going to teach me this, and that's approximately however long, you know, in the field actually doing that, then that sets me up for this next part. And you know, just a good, you know, outline of any basic career path, you know, again, career path in 101, but it's just has to be communicated and let them be able to see what is next.

SPEAKER_01 26:08

How important is that first 30 days or 60 days, or maybe even 90 days when that person comes on board?

SPEAKER_03 26:16

I think it's incredibly important because that's when an employee shapes their long-term perception of the company, right? And so it's got to start with a successful onboarding, and you you want to be able to, through that first 90 days, build confidence, relationships with the team, um, and that there's good engagement engagement from that person supervisor and leadership from day one.

Culture Built On Trust And Recognition

SPEAKER_01 26:44

Now let's move on to a next subject. I know this is something you're good at, how to create an environment where people want to come join that team. Because I talk to people in the field all the time, and I talk to IES people all the time. And I one consistent thing I hear about your company is people love working back because a lot of people don't understand this culture, company culture, that's not a corporate buzzword. That's not a poster in the break room. Cultures happen when the schedule's tight or the job is a little bit behind, maybe, and maybe the customer's mad, but everybody steps up and does what they have to do because that's just the way that you know that's the way they do. And and you because of the work, the hard work that you guys have done, I believe you guys ranked pretty high on uh great places to work. What was it was it this year or last year? This year, 2026. So, what do you think employees are really measuring when it comes to a question, you know, hey, that's a good place to work?

SPEAKER_03 27:41

I think they're measuring trust. Oh, that's cool. Uh I think that's what they're you know, that they that leadership or the company, their team has produced what they promise, you know, practice what they preach, whatever acronym you want, or cliche you want to throw in there. Um, and and so and part of building that trust comes from, you know, do I feel respected? Do I feel heard? Do I believe that leadership cares about my success here? Um, you know, and enjoyment. Do I enjoy working with the people around me? But at the end of the day, it all comes back to that big one trust.

SPEAKER_01 28:18

Yeah. I I see that all the bigs of conference all the time. And and I am, you know, I'm friends with a lot of IES people on my personal Facebook page. And I see pictures of you guys always getting together, always having a good time. And I mean, I saw a picture just recently of someone who doesn't even work for you anymore. And he's still posting pictures of of when you guys were working together. That just shows, you know, that it was a family. It wasn't just a work team or co-workers. That was a that was a family. And you know, one of the things we we talked a lot, you know, over the last 20-30 minutes is you know, we're talking about investment and recognition and um respect. That was one of the ones that you mentioned I really liked a lot. Which one of those is the hardest as an employer to execute consistently? Because anybody can do any one of those for for a day or so, but to do them day in and day out.

SPEAKER_03 29:04

It might sound strange about recognition. And I don't say that because, like, it's not that maybe as a supervisor or a manager, executive leadership, whatever, that you don't say good job to someone, but it's something that people want to hear more consistently. You know, we think, especially if you've got a big team, you think, oh, well, I told them good job on the last project. Well, that was three projects ago. You know, it's consistently showing appreciation, and and it's not just a shout out in the newsletter or whatever, it is just showing appreciation in meaningful ways. And that requires some intentional effort. Yes, and again, and I don't mean that that they don't execute that consistently because they don't want to. It's just it takes time, and everyone is if you ask anybody how they're doing, it's um, oh, so busy, busy, busy, busy, busy. And it, and I get it. We all we are. Um, so that one is an intentional take the time, see your team, and and make sure that you're recognizing it with intentional effort.

SPEAKER_01 30:08

Yeah, we're all wearing multiple hats, and you have to be intentional. I and when I used to work for a very large contractor many, many years ago, um, we had we had our own recruiter. We didn't we didn't go to recruit for we hired our own recruiter, and they his job was to go out and find people and and bring them in and stuff like that. And and whenever somebody he hired happened to come back to the office to pick up supplies or meet with a project manager or meet with HR or do whatever, they would always find time to go talk to the recruiter because they you know that's the first person they met with the company. And so the recruiter and I were talking one time, and and he he said to me, He goes, I said, Why do they always come to you? And he goes, Oh, he goes, I don't know, they feel like they forgive some of their big brother or something like that. And I said, Okay, I gotta ask you then. So, what what are they missing? What what what can we do to be better? And you hit the nail on the head, and you said, just tell them every once in a while that they did a good job. Just you know, some people again, the pat on the back, or some people like to be recognized in front of other people. And and the funny thing is, how much does that really cost a company? So you've worked in quality and development your whole you know for a long time there with with with uh IES. How do you help employees see quality as pride? That's a good one right there, right? Because some people do it because that's how they're taught, but there's a difference when you have pride and you have craftsmanship. It's not just it's not just another checklist because I gotta do it because it's on my it's on my company standard operating procedure. How do you how do you get the employees to see that's that's a pride in craftsmanship?

SPEAKER_03 31:34

I think if they can understand the impact of their work, then quality becomes more personal. So we talked before it's like, hey, you know, we're in all these different areas, we're in all these different industries. Uh, you know, we've talked about data set of hospitals, airports, whatever. When you know, when you can step back and see the impact of that, though, like, hey, that is working. People are actually able to do all of these things because we made a connection, literally, so that that transaction or that light or whatever can come on. Um, you know, I think it probably comes from knowing you've built something that performs well and it serves customers successfully.

SPEAKER_01 32:16

One of the things that your company is really good for is the training department, you know, coming up with training programs, training employees, and not just the standard, you know, okay, you know, send somebody to the Bixie class to become a certified trainer. You know, I mean, you guys, you create all kinds of training programs. How do you how can a company tell what areas they're lacking on that they may need to create a training class to make their employees better?

SPEAKER_03 32:41

Genuinely, it comes in different different ways. So one might be um our one of our account managers coming and saying, Hey, we've got an opportunity with this organization and it's for this, and it's something new. We know immediately, all right. Well, we we need to get, we got to do a bunch of research. Let's get our trainers on that and see what's out there. We're going to our to our solid partners with Vixie or Vixa or whoever, right? To to find out what do they know about it, what are, you know, those things. So that definitely is one way. Another is where, you know, hey, maybe it is a project that we seem to, we, you know, the team just seems to be struggling on what's going on there, having a quality person, having a trainer go out there, kind of observe, seeing what's going on to understand, oh, we need to teach that better. Or, you know what, we need a standard around that because it's too subjective, you know, or whatever. So those those are opportunities definitely to create something that is a learning opportunity.

Lightning Round On Better Leadership

SPEAKER_01 33:46

Yeah. I got a lightning round for you. Five questions. You ready?

SPEAKER_03 33:49

Oh gosh.

SPEAKER_01 33:50

Lightning rounds. Don't don't just quick quick answers off the top of your head. Okay. Here we go. Ready? Okay. What's the biggest mistake contractors make when trying to recruit?

SPEAKER_03 34:02

Uh hiring just for the immediate need instead of the long-term fit.

SPEAKER_01 34:08

Oh, I love that one. I love that one. Because I if you ever see any of my shows talking about resumes and stuff like that and interviews, I always say, look, ask questions. They're there, they're gonna ask you questions. You need to ask them questions to see if you're fit. Because you know what, it might be the best company in the world that might be offering you $30,000, $40,000, $50,000 more than what you're making now. But if you go there and you're miserable, is it really worth that extra money? Here comes the next question: what's the biggest mistake they make trying to retain employees?

SPEAKER_03 34:40

I would say assuming that people will stay without investing in them, their growth, things like that, without investing in them.

SPEAKER_01 34:51

Excellent. What's one thing that every company can do now to because you're good at this, and improving their culture, the company culture?

SPEAKER_03 35:00

Listen. Listen more. Ask them what's working, ask them what's not. Ask them what would help them be successful, and then listen.

SPEAKER_01 35:13

So we talked about continuous learning, and we were really more focused on the field side. What should the next generation of project managers and project foreman, what should they be learning right now?

SPEAKER_03 35:26

Um, I would say communication skills, always be ramping those up. Emotional intelligence. EQ is big. I think you could do a whole series about emotional intelligence at work and adaptability because these types of things will separate. I think those things separate great leaders from average ones.

SPEAKER_01 35:49

Oh, absolutely. I'd say it all the time. We work in the communications industry, but what do we suck at? Communicating, which is always funny. Everybody laughs at that. Everybody laughs at that, but they know it's true. We're horrible about communicating with each other. We we truly are, right? So that one last thing, and these are all gonna make great TikTok videos, these short one-line like this. I might have to start doing this on all future episodes. Oh gosh. Yeah, right. If you could just change one thing about our industry, not just not just hiring, if you could just change one thing about our industry, what would it be?

SPEAKER_03 36:26

One thing about our industry, uh spend as much time and energy developing leaders as you do developing technical experts.

SPEAKER_01 36:36

Amen. Amen to that. Uh there's an old adage. I don't remember, I don't remember the business principle, and I don't remember where it came from because see, I I learned a lot of things and I can't remember where they all come from, but a good leader is training their replacement. I wish I could remember where I heard that because it's absolutely true.

SPEAKER_03 36:55

I've heard that a lot. I I've heard that as well over my career. I in the former life I came from the staffing and recruiting world, which is where some of this stuff comes from too. And that was always like, yeah, you got to keep recruiting for the next person because hopefully you're going to be growing and moving up. So you need to be make sure that that replacement comes in there, otherwise you're gonna end up doing two jobs.

SPEAKER_01 37:18

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I remember my my boss uh at a company one time. Um, we got we got talking about training your your replacement, and one of his boss at the time was somebody that he had trained, so he trained him so good they actually became his boss. And I got to thinking, I was like, I said to him one day, because you know, I'm young and naive. Again, I this one's first product, my first project management position. I didn't know you know etiquette. And I just said to him the other day, I said, Isn't that kind of awkward? You trained him and now he's your boss. And he's like, No. He says, I'm not gonna have a better advocate in my corner than that guy right there.

SPEAKER_03 37:59

That and it's a huge compliment.

SPEAKER_01 38:01

Yes, absolutely, absolutely. Shelly, thank you for coming on the show. It's a pleasure having you come back, and I hope to see you at the the Bixie winner conference.

SPEAKER_03 38:10

Me too, it was a pleasure, and love talking to you as usual.