How To Maximize Certification Training Value In The ICT Industry

We talk with Donald Sanders about how to squeeze real, job-ready value out of training and certification, from what to do before class to how to show up once you’re in the room. We share practical habits for learning structured cabling standards faster, testing better, and building a long-term career in the ICT industry without pretending you know everything. 

• preparing for training by staying in your lane and building a foundation first 
• using skills assessments so employers send techs to the right class 
• learning telecom acronyms and vetting sources before you trust advice 
• showing up on time, staying present, and keeping an open mind 
• asking questions without fear and taking short, useful notes 
• jumping into hands-on labs to learn from mistakes safely 
• building relationships across companies and learning from peers 
• slowing down on exams, reading questions fully, and using your time 
• planning a career path before spending big money on credentials 
• continuing education between major certifications to stay current 
• representing credentials well by saying “I don’t know” and finding the right answer 

If you're listening to the show on YouTube, would you mind hitting the subscribe button and the bell button to be notified when new content is being produced? If you're listening to us on one of the audio podcast platforms, would you mind leaving us a five-star rating? Wednesday night, 6 p.m. Eastern Standard Time, what are you doing? You can schedule a 15-minute one-on-one call with me after hours, of course. Or you can even buy Let's Talk Cabling merchandise. 

Transcript

Why Training Value Matters

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hey one monkeys, welcome to another episode of Let's Talk Healing. This episode we're talking about ways that you can maximize the value when you're in training. Welcome to the show where we tackle the tough questions submitted by apprentices, installers, technicians, project foremen, project managers, estimators, designers, even customers. We're connecting at the human level so that we can connect the world. If you're listening to the show on YouTube, would you mind hitting the subscribe button and the bell button to be notified when new content is being produced? If you're listening to us on one of the audio podcast platforms, would you mind leaving us a five-star rating? Those simple little steps help us take on the algorithm so we can educate, encourage, and enrich the lives of people in the ICT industry. Wednesday night, 6 p.m. Eastern Standard Time, what are you doing? You know I do live streams where you ask your favorite RCDD questions on design, installation, certification. I even do career path questions. But I can hear you now. But Chuck, I'm driving my truck on Wednesday nights at 6 p.m. I know where I can interaction. Relax, breathe in, breathe out. I record them and you can listen to them or watch them at your convenience. And finally, while this show is free and always remained free. Would you mind clicking on the QR code right there? You can schedule a 15-minute one-on-one call with me after hours, of course. Or you can even buy Let's Talk Cabling merchandise. So you know, what times and we're as installers or technicians or foremen, we get sent to classes. Now, some people are really flourishing in those kind of learning environments, some people don't. Some people go into classes and think they know everything. Some people go in there realizing they don't know anything. Knowledge is a dangerous thing because the more you have, the more you realize you don't know. So you really need to make the best the best of your training.

Meet Donald Sanders And His Path

SPEAKER_01 2:19

So I'm bringing on a special guest. He's an FOA instructor, he's a Bixie instructor, and he's a trainer for E2 Optics, which is one of the one of what I call the platinum contractors in our industry because they get it. They understand that training is the difference between successful companies and average companies. Welcome, Donald Sanders. How are you doing, my friend?

SPEAKER_02 2:41

Pretty good, Chuck. How are you doing tonight?

SPEAKER_01 2:43

Doing fantastic. I just heard rumbling outside. It's just as you're saying you're doing fine. I was like, okay, the benefits of living in Florida, right? There you go.

SPEAKER_02 2:52

There you go. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:53

So give us the 50,000-foot view. Who's Donald Sanders and who's Donald Sanders? Sorry. And uh why should we listen to you?

SPEAKER_02 3:02

Well, I am just that lonely tech who uh you know entered the industry, uh, boots on the ground, infrastructure, grounding and bonding, worked my way up, and I quickly realized that in an industry that we're in, it's been around for a while, but we're booming right now. And there's a a big chance to develop an amazing career. Um, as soon as I could get that chance to jump into a spot to where I could help develop other technicians, um, get them to those certifications that we all would like to see, um, it just seem to be better off. You know, let's create that winning team and get the knowledge into the the hands of the people building this stuff.

SPEAKER_01 3:39

Yeah, you know, I tell people all the time, and I truly mean this, our industry changes at the speed of light. I mean, what's what's valid today is not going to be valid tomorrow. You know, as you hear people talking all the time, you know, you know, it's always gonna be cat 5e. No, it's not. People used to say that about cat three, and it's been going for a while. You know, you're talking about fiber. We're talking now, we're talking about hollow core fiber, multi-strand fiber, you know, there's all kinds of cool stuff coming down the pike. And you've got the best person in this industry is a constant learner. That's why I want to focus the first section of today's class on ways that that somebody can prepare before the class. Their boss said, Hey, you need to go be in that class next week, that Bixie class, that FOA class. Um, what's gonna separate the students from who get the most out of that certification class from those who just are just there to exchange oxygen and carbon monoxide?

SPEAKER_02 4:33

Well, first and foremost, you've got to understand what you're jumping into. Um in our industry, there is so many knowledge, and you said it best during your intro that the more knowledge you gain, the more you realize you do not know. Um, it would always be best to kind of stay in the correct lane, um, infrastructure-wise, look at infrastructure, start there. If you're working in networking or with fiber optics, maybe start there with something you're familiar with and then grow that knowledge. Uh, what I see too too often is somebody wants all of it right now, and that can be too much to bite onto. Um, it's best to take small chunks and and get there slowly.

SPEAKER_01 5:16

Oh, absolutely 100%. Because you know, first off, you gotta get past the language barrier because we talk in acronyms, and that that that puts off a lot of people. And you can't jump in, you can't just jump in on the first day of your job and expect to be out there doing you know optical optical groundwater fiber. You just that's not gonna happen. You gotta kind of work your way up to those skill sets. You know, you gotta you hate to say this because a lot of people don't like here. It's it's all it's a ladder, it's a career ladder. You gotta climb up that ladder, you gotta build a solid foundation before you start thinking. Yeah, I'll give you exactly I'll give you an analogy. Uh, you may not know this about me, but we got a little homestead here, and we have at any given time we can have ducks, chickens, geese, goats, pigs, aquaponics, garden beds, all kinds of stuff. I didn't start off day one with all those systems. I started off first off with chickens. I mastered that skill, and then I went to a next skill. It's the same thing with the low voltage technician. You got to understand, you know, how to pull cable, copper and fiber, because they're they're kind of they're different and how you pull them, how you test them, how you how you how how you certify them, then you can worry about okay. I there's many branches to the low voltage tree, right? So if you want to go design, then you gotta start thinking about how you want to estimate. If you want to do project management, you gotta start thinking about those skill sets. If you want to do, you know, training or QA, those are different skill sets. You know, and those two career path ladders are the are the same. So, you know, you have to have a good solid foundation.

Build The Foundation Before Classes

SPEAKER_00 6:44

Let's take a short break. Are you trying to reach the technicians, project managers, and decision makers of the ICT industry? Then why aren't you advertising on Let's Talk Cabling? With over 150,000 impressions a month across podcasts, YouTube, and social media, this isn't just a show. It's the go-to resource for the low voltage industry. We spotlight the tools, training, and technology shaping the future of structured cabling. And your brand could be front and center. Don't just get noticed, get trusted. Email Chuck at advertising at letstalkcabling.com and let's connect your brand to the right audience today.

SPEAKER_01 7:31

What are you what is your opinion on on having the solid foundation before you start taking any kind of technical classes?

SPEAKER_02 7:39

Uh it's greatly beneficial. Uh you will most definitely probably struggle, and I'm not saying everybody will struggle. You've got people with the photographic memory that can read a bixie book that's six inches thick and nail it right off the bat. Uh, not always gonna happen. Um, you know, the reason why I say I am as effective as I am because I've had bad teachers. Um, it's all about trying to find that learning style and what works for that individual. That's what I really pride myself on. It's let's get the tools that work for you. Um and start out there, work your way up. I remember getting thrown into a Bixie installer course with no prior training, and it ate me alive early in my career. So, the more you questions you can ask, the more you can learn in the field, and then differentiate between those tribal knowledge terms and things that we have out there to what the standard says. And like you said, with the uh acronyms, I say people I tell people once you learn telecommunications acronyms, you will be bilingual at that point.

SPEAKER_01 8:44

I'm stealing that. I am I'm stealing it.

SPEAKER_02 8:46

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 8:47

So when you hear that on a future show, you can you can smile because you know, hey, I taught Chuck that one.

SPEAKER_02 8:53

Perfect, perfect.

SPEAKER_01 8:54

But you know that you you're absolutely right. I never, you know, I've always known this, but I don't know if I've ever verbalized it. But um, there are you know, certain there are some students who just who migrate towards certain types of instructors and other types that migrate toward those types of instructors. And as an instructor, it's your job to when you get that group in front of you. People always wonder why why I do those introductions in the in the beginning of the class, you know, ask people their years of experience, where they come from, what they do before. I am gaining knowledge about them trying to assess their land their learning skills, though their their learning styles, because no two people learn the exact same way. And uh, you know, the and you're right. Yeah, you you probably know this being an instructor yourself is you know, when you go when you now when you sit in classes as an instructor, you're technically taking two classes. You're taking one class on the content that they're teaching, and the second, you're probably tell me if I'm right or wrong, you're watching the instructor to find out what things they do that you can incorporate in your classes.

SPEAKER_02 9:53

Absolutely. And you know, I can tell you that's how I've gotten to where I'm at in this career. You know, I might have just been up on top of those racks running agrounding and bonding wire, you know, hooking it to that backbone. Um, but I was watching what worked for everybody, um, learning off of what they do, professionalism, um, their knowledge. I tell people if you're around people that have been in this industry for 20, 35 years and you're not learning something off of them, um, you're discrediting yourself at that point.

SPEAKER_01 10:22

Yeah, you are, absolutely. You know, but you gotta be careful because just because somebody has 30 years of experience, absolutely got 30 years of good experience.

SPEAKER_02 10:33

Absolutely, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 10:35

How can I do that one?

SPEAKER_02 10:37

Those super techs that you know, um and you mentioned that early in your introduction. They come in and they think they know everything, and um, nine times out of 10, they're gonna walk out and they're gonna be uh shaking your hand saying they learned something.

SPEAKER_01 10:50

Right, yeah, exactly. You can always tell this because they sit in the back with their hands crossed, and we ain't gonna teach me nothing. I know everything, I know this industry like the back of my hand.

SPEAKER_02 11:01

That is the truth.

SPEAKER_01 11:02

Yes, uh, I I've got 44 years of experience. I don't know this industry like the back of my hand. There's a lot to this industry. So let's look at this from an

What Employers Should Do First

SPEAKER_01 11:12

employer's perspective. Let's say we're gonna talk to the employers right now, the supervisors, right? Um, what preparation should those type of people encourage for the person they're gonna be sending to the class before that person goes to that class?

SPEAKER_02 11:26

Some sort of skills assessment. Let's see where they're at, let's put them in the right train right off the bat. Um, you've got someone in networking, uh deploying patch cables off of gear. You probably don't want to change them around and throw them into a copper course. Um, not saying that that isn't beneficial, just depending on that person, but um, stay in that, you know, I like to say this, stay in that lane of what you're used to right now. You're going to grow eventually. You just can't take it all at one time. My boss tells me, what's the the quickest way to eat an elephant? Bite, bite, bite. Yep, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 12:02

Exactly. That's an old project management thing there. Is your boss a project project manager or program manager?

SPEAKER_02 12:08

Absolutely. Uh uh he's been doing it all throughout his career. He started right out of high school, and um, you know, I was in the home construction, not saying it wasn't beneficial in this industry, because I kind of got that view of where I can look through things and and understand how they're built and constructed. Uh I wish I would have started earlier on, um, right out of high school. I couldn't imagine where I would be after um, you know, 24 years in the industry.

SPEAKER_01 12:33

Well, I I've said this before on on you know in a podcast on about six months ago, you know, you your your your career journey isn't just about that industry. There are things that you do either either within a job or maybe even a hobby or outside of your job that can benefit you in your job later on that you don't even realize. And I'll give you and I'll give you an example, right? So uh when I was in my mid-30s, early 30s, I decided I want to become a volunteer firefighter. So I went through firefighter school, emt school, driver's school, you know, first aid, all this stuff. And you know, because that's what I wanted to do on the weekends. Little did I know that those skill sets made me become a safety manager later on, a perfect, perfect person to be the safety manager. So you never know what skill set you learn, either in or outside of the job, that's going to benefit you down the road.

SPEAKER_02 13:29

Absolutely. The, you know, uh, I followed my grandpa around as soon as I was eight years old. He ran his own construction crew. You know, I was picking shingles up off the ground at eight. Um, he had me laying shingles on a roof at 11 years old. Um just being around somebody running a business like that and understanding what what professionalism means and and how to make a a successful business or team in any capacity was huge. It was greatly beneficial for me.

SPEAKER_01 13:58

Oh, absolutely. And and even if it was residential construction, it's still construction, you're still learning how to work around other trades, you're still learning how to function within that that echo environment. So there's absolutely skill sets there that that cross over to what we do. Absolutely.

Research Standards And Trust Sources

SPEAKER_01 14:15

So let's talk to the technician to say again. The boss just said, okay, you gotta be in that class tomorrow. Um, so make sure that you, you know, you know, you're ready for it. How can a student familiarize themselves with the industry standards before that training even begins?

SPEAKER_02 14:32

Understand what the type of training that you are going to attend is, um, and then start doing some research on your own. You're not going to gain all of this knowledge sitting in just classes. You've got to put a little time in on your own. And I tell the people who sit in my courses, I'm not asking you to go home at night and and watch videos on copper terminations or the new latest fiber optic cable. But every once in a while, you know, grab a hold of one of those videos and watch it. You know, a short 10-minute one here, 10-minute here. Um, and then also look for all of those free little certifications that all the vendors and manufacturers offer. They're greatly beneficial. Just because they're free doesn't mean that they don't hold weight in this industry.

SPEAKER_01 15:18

Every class has something in it that could benefit you in your career. Even if it's even if it's you're taking a class on something that you're already that you probably already could even at the skill level you could teach it, you could probably still learn one new thing out of that class.

unknown 15:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:35

I learn something every class that I teach, if whether it is entry-level people that are coming in and they were working at Walmart last week or or Burger King, wherever, whatever analogy you like there, um, all the way up to people like we just talked, you know, um 25, 30 years experience. It's just taking what they said for a grain of salt, tell you can see that in black and white. I tell people if you can read it in black and white three times, it's probably true.

SPEAKER_01 16:01

And I love that you said that is do some research on your own. And there's lots of, you know, lots of great things. There's lots of great sources out there. Cable Installation and Maintenance Magazine, um uh at the FOA, they got a lot of free training, fiber operating stuff on their site. There's a lot of great places. The only thing I would caution is make sure that you evaluate the sources that's coming from. Because just because somebody can record something and show you how to do something doesn't mean it's the right way. So always evaluate where that information is coming from. If it if it's coming from, you know, two Johns and a biscain station wagon, that might not hold as much weight as a video coming from uh from a connectivity manufacturer.

SPEAKER_02 16:46

I agree, I agree. Um, if if you can't read about that in several different articles, how do you know it's true? I could put whatever I want out on the web. I could record whatever I want, I could write whatever article I want, and I could state it however I'd like. Um, it's just knowing where to to dig up that information, see if it's false, true or false. See that straightforward.

SPEAKER_01 17:08

I mean, I I've learned, you know, I love consuming low voltage content on the internet. Not only on the internet, I love watching the internet for low voltage content. And I saw, I won't say who it was, but I saw a a well-established name within the industry who has a pretty good presence on social media showing how to mount a cabinet to a wall, and they were doing it without mounting it to a piece of plywood. And I kind of reached out to him on the on the backside in the you know through messages. Now I didn't do it, I didn't do it in the comment section. I went to the messages and said, look, the proper way is blah blah blah blah blah. And uh so then you know, even even people may I put out a you I put out TikTok video today that had a mistake in it. I didn't realize till somebody called me out on it because I was talking about you know, uh it was about PoE and somebody's talking about well, low voltage cables, 57 volts or under, blah blah blah, something about the code. I totally blew it up. I totally blew up. I said I said, Well, well, we're doing 100 watts now, that's more than 57 watts. I was like, I didn't catch it till somebody said something about it. So yeah, even the best people make mistakes.

SPEAKER_02 18:18

Yeah, I yeah, I like to tell you, I talk to my boss all the time. I'm like, there is so much information that we're trying to keep up on and keep relevant up here that if you don't get a little bit of them like twisted sometimes, right? I don't think your head's fully in the game that that we're playing right now.

SPEAKER_01 18:34

Yeah, yeah. A good example of that is, and I see this in comments on on social media all the time. People confuse the permanent link link and the channel links all the time. All the time. I mean, all the time. And they always and they'll and they'll they'll die on their sword thinking they got it right. And you know, as as an instructor, sometimes you realize, okay, you know what, I'm not gonna change your mind. I know what the answer to that is. Let's move on.

SPEAKER_02 19:01

Well, you know as well as I do in this industry, you could very well get into some pretty heated debates, and I don't think that it's that deep. Um, if we we should be able to have conversations with each other regardless of where we work, we're in the same industry, have a conversation. We don't all know everything. Right. You you'll probably turn around the turn the corner and someone will teach you something.

SPEAKER_01 19:23

Oh, absolutely. I learned stuff from people with little experience in in classes all the time.

The Mindset That Wins In Class

SPEAKER_01 19:28

So let's so let's talk about the the student. What kind of a mindset should they have when they walk through that classroom door and they sit down?

SPEAKER_02 19:39

First off, on time. Be on time and be there. Those are the two free things that you can do to be successful in this industry. The third, positive attitude, fourth, willingness to learn and accept new information. You may have been told wrong. I couldn't tell you the amount of things that I was educated in correctly till I took this training journey. Um so, right off the bat, um come in with an open mind, ready to learn, ask questions. I tell people, um, no question is a dumb question, especially if you're there to learn. Um, I I feel like if you're done asking questions, you're done learning. Yes, you know, and you can look at our our elders in every aspect, they're always trying to still continue learning. You got to keep this sharp up here, the rest of the body will follow.

SPEAKER_01 20:29

Uh-uh, uh, absolutely. And and and that kind of goes to our industry, it's always changing all the time. And like I said, you know, we used to it used to be a common and acceptable practice to staple cable. That used to be that used to be acceptable. You know, pots cabling, not a problem. Today's environment, no, don't staple cables, you know. So you might even talk about that 30-year-old, you know, uh Ma Bell guy that you know they're running pots cabling, they were stapling, and they think, ah, stapling is just fine. Um, but you're right about the no, there's no such thing as a bad question. I mean, even if I had this happened in a class I was teaching just last week. Um, I went over, we're going through working our way through the curriculum, and I know that I covered this piece of information. And then literally about an hour later, one of the students asked me a question that directly related to what I said earlier. And I didn't, you know, I could have I could have been a jerk and I could have said, Well, I covered that earlier, but it didn't. I just kind of I just kind of went into it again because I understand from because I've sat in classes, I've got ADHD, you know, and I'm sometimes my mind wanders. There's no there's no such thing as a instructor to keep your your your attention from 100% of the time. You you literally have maybe 30 minutes, 45 minutes before you need to give them a break or or or do a pattern interrupt. So yeah, absolutely. So that's why I think I kind of figured okay, well, maybe maybe he was in one of those spots, or maybe he was on his phone checking a company email or something, he just missed it, you know. You know, so that can happen, that can happen to anybody.

SPEAKER_02 22:00

Yeah, I mean, unless it's blatant, you don't want to just you don't want to destroy their their willingness to succeed. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 22:08

The worst thing you could do is call them out and make them feel bad, give them a bad experience in a learning environment. Most technicians, and I'm I'm this way, and I'm pretty sure you you probably would probably would agree with me, but most technicians, they can when they come out of high school, they don't want to go back to school again. They just want to you know do their job and they don't want they don't want to take training sometimes. You know, them done with high school, but you have to in order to to climb that ladder as we talked about earlier, you have to learn new skill sets. And the only way we can learn new skill sets is to take classes and learn, right? So you don't 100%. Yeah, you don't want to give them bad experience of that.

Simple Habits During The Classroom Day

SPEAKER_01 22:46

So let's talk about ways that they can be successful during the actual class. All right, during the actual class. So, what habits do you see the best students demonstrating doing the actual class?

SPEAKER_02 22:59

Simple stuff. You know, a lot of times we take a technician who's running around out in the field 10 to 12 hours a day. We bring them in and we sit them in a chair. The, you know, and I tell everybody, we're adults, we're gonna get tired in here. It's gonna be a little bit different of an atmosphere. Stand up in the back of the classroom. Um, you know, get get your body moving. Don't come up in the front and be distracting of others, but you know, get up and move around, holler at me. Hey, can we get a break? That's huge because I think you know as well as I do. Once I get talking on some of these subjects, it's hard to stop. Um, you could talk about them for a week. Um you turn around, oh, we're 15 minutes past lunchtime. Why didn't anybody tell me? You know?

SPEAKER_01 23:41

You get into your groove, you get into your instruction.

SPEAKER_02 23:43

Absolutely. Yep, absolutely. And uh stay positive, um, stay engaged. Uh, take notes. Um, and small notes. You don't want to longhand anything. Your hand gets tired, you're shaking. You're you're gonna end up stopping that note-taking process. So um, maybe even hollering out what what keys, what keywords should I write down, and how should I write that down? You know, uh, you don't need to longhand everything. That's gonna make you want to, you know, throw it all away. The ADHD is gonna kick in. So um just just an accepting attitude, willing to take the notes, move around if you're tired. I see that a lot.

SPEAKER_01 24:27

Um I tell I tell students all that all the time because you know I tell them, look, you're used to climbing up and down ladders all day long. So sitting in a chair is gonna be difficult for you. You know, just you need to stand up, stretch your legs, you need to go to the bathroom. You know, because I raise six kids and I tell them all the time, so look, I'm used to a lot of commotion in a room. I I'll keep talking. He said, You will not disrupt me. I will keep going.

SPEAKER_04 24:49

Not at all.

SPEAKER_01 24:50

Yes, exactly.

Hands-On Learning Without Fear

SPEAKER_01 24:52

So any good class is not just a lecture, you know. I mean, the best classes, I think probably have like a 50-50 mixture, maybe a maybe a 60-40 mixture, 60 hands-on, 40 lecture, 50-50. Um, those are the best classes, right? What ways can a student maximize their learning in a hands-on environment?

SPEAKER_02 25:18

Get it, jump right in there. Um, ask questions. Where do I need to be? And a lot of times what I throw together is let's say we're doing a cable pull. You know, we did some terminations earlier in the day. We're gonna, you know, get the fish tape out and and the jet line, and we're gonna pull through some conduit. Um, jump in there, ask, you know, uh, usually I'll try to find like a more experienced um individual, have them like be the lead. Yes, and you gotta ask those questions and kind of play off of that. And I got I like to sit back as like that supervisor. If you have questions, you can bring them to me, maybe discuss them with the group, talk to the lead of that group, and have them come to me at that time. Um getting in there and getting involved. I see too often people just kind of scared, standing back there. Maybe it's a new industry. Um, you know, especially in a learning environment, you got to understand you're not going to cause money loss. It's not gonna be a rework. You're not gonna get in trouble. Uh, we want you to mess up fittings. We want you to mess up cable so we can show you why we do not pull it this way or terminate it this way. Um, that's what it's all about is getting in there, getting some experience, seeing what can go wrong and adjusting from that.

SPEAKER_01 26:30

Yeah, the best time to mess it up is in a classroom environment.

SPEAKER_02 26:33

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 26:34

And and I think what I think while some students are kind of I don't want to say afraid, maybe shy is more better, the better word of being the first to jump in because they may not have terminated that that copper connector before that fiber connector before because they're afraid everybody's gonna be judging them. All I can say to that's the person is everybody starts off this industry in the exact same spot, and that's with no knowledge. So don't don't be afraid to jump in and make mistakes because that's why we're here. And I think for me as an instructor, one of my favorite things to do is it's like when we're doing the hands-on, after I've given them all the you know, showed how to do everything and gave them all the reasons, and as as a as they're doing the hands-on, I'm kind of like you, the supervisor, kind of walking around and kind of supervising everybody, make sure everybody's got their PPE on, make sure they're doing

Learning Together Across Companies

SPEAKER_01 27:20

everything right. Is well, I love it when when two people, because I see you're probably teaching all the same company. I teach people from different companies, so it's not unusual for having me two people sitting side by side who work for two different companies who don't know each other, right? And more than one occasion, I've seen one, the more senior guy, help the person who's having less who has less experience because they're struggling with something, and they're not even they're not even they're they don't even work together, they're different companies. That's for me, I love seeing that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_02 27:48

That that just gets a sparkle in my eye. Um, that's what is huge. Um, it goes back to that, you know, some people don't want to ask those questions, they don't want to feel some sort of way, and and that goes both ways. Um, if someone cannot ask a question and you want to make them feel less than in any capacity, I don't really think there's room for that. Um, in this industry, if you cannot work with other people from other companies, um, you might have a hard time getting what you need to be done at a certain date.

SPEAKER_01 28:19

Oh, I am 100%.

SPEAKER_02 28:21

It's best to work together. Um, during my experience down in Tampa when I when I was getting certified to be able to instruct the Bixie courses, it was the same. I sat right next to all of my competitors, and at that time we're on a level playing field, and it it's not about you know competition, it really isn't. That goes for me being out on sites. I've walked around to to individuals and other trades. Hey, I need some splice sleeves. You got 20 splice sleeves, get me through the rest of this day. Um, usually you can find it.

SPEAKER_01 28:51

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:51

So it's good to keep good friends in this industry.

SPEAKER_01 28:54

Yeah, the funny thing is, is you know, the way that the way two technicians look at each other is different than the way two managers look at technicians looking at each other. And what and what I mean by that is right, you know, managers they're afraid to have to put you in a class. And this because I work for multiple uh multiple companies in the same class. I've more than once I've had to deal with a manager saying, Well, we want to buy out an entire class because we don't want um other people to be in a class with ours because they might we they might try to steal our people. But yet when you get two technicians in the room, you know, there's a there's a natural cycle to every class, whether it's a one-day class or a five-day class. And the major the major cycles are number one, everybody's brand new, everybody doesn't know, they don't know where they fit in the group dynamics yet. They're all being kind of quiet, kind of watching everybody else. And then good, there's a couple cycles in between. But the last cycle is you would swear these guys knew each other for 20 years, you know. Yeah, they're all hey buddy, buddy.

SPEAKER_02 29:51

Well, hey, keep in touch, find me on LinkedIn, you know, exchanging contact information, you know. Um, you know, I sat down with eight other people in in, you know, getting my T3 down there in Tampa, and I walked away with seven new friends, uh colleagues. I'm still friends with people.

SPEAKER_01 30:07

I'm I'm still friends with people that I went through my T3 class with.

SPEAKER_02 30:11

Absolutely. If you don't keep that relationship in this industry, you're gonna have a hard time at one point, and that person's gonna be looking at you going, I could help you right now.

SPEAKER_01 30:22

But I've your T3 instructor.

SPEAKER_02 30:25

So I had um uh is it Mark?

SPEAKER_01 30:28

Mark S Power.

SPEAKER_02 30:29

I believe it was yep, yeah, and of course, um oh, I'm brain farting on his cow, uh Chris Chris Hobbs Hobbs.

SPEAKER_01 30:37

Okay, yep, they were another great person, yes. Absolutely, yeah. They're they're both very knowledgeable people. Yeah, I know them both. Know them both.

Exam Strategies That Slow You Down

SPEAKER_01 30:45

Um at some point, you know, you know, when you sit in any kind of class, the vast majority of them have some kind of a test, a certification, right? Whether it be a hands-on certification or you know, sit down, take a written exam, whatever. What are some good strategies for students who know they're gonna be taking that test?

SPEAKER_02 31:07

There's several tests or testing or exam methods you need to look at. Um, a lot of the big ones in this industry will go right back to the acronyms and that critical thinking. They will word things to make you use that critical thinking. Um big exam. If I'm sitting in a proctored facility down at the community college, my hand does not stay on my mouse. My hands sit in front of me, folded. I read the question multiple times so I can understand what that question is asking. Once I understand what the question is asking, I will then go through my question my multiple choice answers. When I'm ready to select it, that's the only time I go to that mouse, I select that answer, I click next, my hands come off that mouse, they get crossed in front of me. You have to give yourself time. Um, we mentioned it a couple of times. ADHD, ADD, however you want to look at it, you want to get through that exam as fast as possible, and that's not gonna help you. There's a reason why you get an hour to an hour and a half on a lot of those just to get through that exam, utilize that time, um, write questions down. Sometimes you'll get five questions in, and that question will answer the one that you were just going to. Yep. You have to look at those things, um, understand, okay, question 10. I struggled on that. Let me mark that down. Um, and then you can come back to that. It's huge just understanding what they're asking.

SPEAKER_01 32:32

Now that's a that's a whole that's a whole thing in itself is you know, the whole test taking, not procedure, but the thought process. And I love the way you describe that perfectly because um, because when we do our classes, I do a lot of my classes virtually, and so they're doing a virtual exam. And I always tell them read the question all the way through. Don't don't oh you know, when you if you're halfway through and you think you know the answer, you may not know the answer. Read the question all the way through. I love I love how you you purposely slowed it down because you said, you know, read it a couple times, you know, and then you know, read look, look at the options, then put your hand on the mouse. Uh you you're right. A lot of people want to get through that process because it's painful for them, right? It is. If you're given an hour to take a test, right, that's 60 minutes, and I'm just gonna make the math simple for Chuck. Uh you know, here we go. I'm gonna make I'm gonna make the math real simple for Chuck. So it's a 60-minute test and you got 60 questions. That means you got one minute per test, one minute per question, right? So if you're 30 minutes into the exam and you're on question 42, you're ahead of the game. If you're on question 25, you're behind the game. Just a little bit of math thinking skills there for you as you go through taking the tests, right?

SPEAKER_02 33:42

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, we're used to that when we're instructing a class because we know about where we should be during that, you know, presenting time. It's like, oh, okay, I'm a little bit ahead. I can slow a little bit, you know, I can answer questions a little bit better. And then you've got the other side. Oh man, I'm behind what happened there.

SPEAKER_01 34:01

Yeah, I know when I when I when I when I passed my RCD test, um, you know, I never, it's funny when I was doing my studying, I didn't really think about after my credential. Um I was so focused on getting the credential, learning the material, retraining my brain to think about how to take tests again. I didn't think about afterwards,

Using Credentials To Shape A Career

SPEAKER_01 34:21

right? I didn't. And but now since I've had my RCD since 1999, so that's 27 years of RCD experience. Nice. I've had lots of time to think about what to do with my credential after I've got it. So, so from your opinion, from your thoughts, what should a newly certified credential person immediately start doing after they get their credential?

SPEAKER_02 34:46

I would say before you get that credential, you need to start looking at that career path and where you're planning on going, where you're gonna take that certificate. Um if you don't know where it, you know, if you don't even know, I don't even know if I'm gonna stay in this industry. The last thing you really want to do is get into something that's gonna cost you well over three grand and really rack that brain. Um you really got to prepare for where you're going and start that training slow, get there, nice pace. Um, you're gonna have a better go at it for sure. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 35:19

I I get that question a lot, actually, you know, because of my content on the on the internet. Uh people always reach out to me and they're like, Chuck, I'm new to the industry. What credentials should I go out and get right away? And you know, my first question always, you know, number one, let's have a phone call. Let's let's let's have a conversation. Because, you know, responding to a single question in an email or direct message, I'm not doing you any value there. I got I gotta learn more this more to this story. And I want to give you the right answer. I need to know the background information, right?

SPEAKER_04 35:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:48

So if someone says, you know, so if I if I get a chance to talk to them, say, okay, do you think you're gonna stay in this industry? Does this industry seem interesting to you? Or is this just a hey, your your brothers, sisters, next door neighbor knew a guy who had an opening at a company and you never even knew of low voltage, and there's nothing wrong with that, because that's how I started that's how I started. And if 44 years later, I'm still doing it. But my point is if you're only six months in or a year in, just like you said, uh, do you really want to go spend two thousand, three thousand dollars for a class, or have your company spend two or three thousand dollars and then make you sign a training agreement where you're on the hook for two or three thousand dollars, and you're not 100% positive this is your industry, right? So I always tell people start start off with the if you want if you want to start doing there's lots of free certification. The FOA. The FOA's their certifications are great and they're not that expensive, they're not that expensive. Um, you know, you can go online, there's free fire stop training classes you can take out there.

SPEAKER_02 36:51

There's all STI has them, Comscope has free trainings.

SPEAKER_01 36:55

Every manufacturer has their as a training class that you can go in. Yes. Um, don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with the expensive classes, but when there's that kind of you start no type, that kind of money, you know, I don't know about you. I don't got three thousand dollars laying around to to throw at something and change my mind two weeks down the road. No, so make sure it's the industry you want to be in first, and then then you can you can start by doing the little stuff, like you said, taking them small bites at first, and then when you said, you know, one day you realize hey, I really do enjoy this, then start thinking about the big ones.

SPEAKER_02 37:27

And you and you know as well as I do, Chuck. Once they get in here and spend any amount of time in this industry, we've got them.

SPEAKER_01 37:33

Yes, this is such a great industry. Most people don't understand that. They they just think it's oh, it's just cabling. Because I've been in this in this industry, I've gotten to see places that very few other people got to see. And and you get to see when we went through COVID. That the whole the whole we kept the internet going, we kept you know people employed and people be able to do the jobs. They they didn't realize what how valuable an internet or a network was, or until they start trying to do virtual stuff all the time, virtual meetings and stuff.

SPEAKER_02 38:08

You know, 100%. Yeah, uh, my my 10-year-old boy asked me, you know, what do you do, dad? I said, I'm only building the largest network that you'll ever use in your life. Exactly. And it you could be at a data center on a small chunk, you could be doing some OSP, um, you know, long haul cabling. Yep, it's all connected, it it all gets you there. And you're gonna we're gonna use it. We demand it.

SPEAKER_01 38:34

When I first got in this industry, again, we're talking like early 80s, it used to be this this the this was a stepping stone to get to a different career. There were many people who were just pulling cable, turning cable because they wanted to become a PBX engineer or a network engineer. You know how many times I have people tell me now, oh, you know what, I was a network engineer, I'd I'd rather do cabling. I I think I find it much more satisfaction.

SPEAKER_02 38:59

Yeah, I hear that. Absolutely. Yeah, I I miss the field on a daily basis, but um, what keeps me going is I'm creating better text. I'm trying to give them a better understanding than I had walking in here and you know, walking into this gigantic six football fields long with multiple trades everywhere. Well, what what am I doing here? Um it just giving them that that benefit before they walk in there. And I I could only imagine where we're at in 35 years. Um I'll be retired. Yeah. Uh some of these kids we're teaching now are gonna be running the show, and right, you know, you're gonna see more you know, standards upheld by by local, you know, county and and and cities, and you know, just like electrical did back in the day.

SPEAKER_01 39:48

Yep. That's where we're headed. So what should uh so the the the technicians got his credential now, right? Um it you and I both know we don't get sent to credential classes every other week. That's that's a once every five years, once every 10 years kind of a thing for for most people.

Continuing Education Between Big Classes

SPEAKER_01 40:05

For most people, right? So there's a lot of time in between those credentialing classes. What can somebody do to continue building on their education in between those credentialing classes?

SPEAKER_02 40:16

And continued education courses. Um, every vendor has them, they're everywhere. Uh, you got to keep up on the knowledge. It you're not always gonna be doing copper cabling, you're gonna be stuck doing just some fiber cabling for you know, sometimes a year or more. Then you're gonna come back to that copper, that twisted pair. You have to continue that education, see what's new. Um, I knew about holocore fiber what probably two years ago when they first started talking, it just caught an article. Um, before you know it, you turn around, it's being deployed. That's the thing about our industry is we're moving so quick that they're talking about a product next week, the product's being deployed.

SPEAKER_01 40:59

Yeah, you you have to be a constant learner because, like you said, unlike you, I only learned about Holocore Fiber maybe six months ago. And that's because then that's because my day job, right? So you're you're working for a contractor who's actually doing the work. My day job, I don't work for a contractor anymore, I work for a connectivity company, so I'm not out there doing the jobs. So I didn't hear about it as fast as you did, but I'm telling you right, you got to be a constant learner because you you just don't know, okay, was this gonna be symmetrical, uh multi-mo, multi-core fiber, asymmetrical multi-core fiber? What are the differences? And what are the standards gonna finally set their, you know, make their decision on? And just yeah, you've got to be a constant learner.

SPEAKER_02 41:37

What's that gonna do to handling? What's that gonna do to splicing? What's that gonna do to my timeline?

SPEAKER_01 41:41

Right.

SPEAKER_02 41:42

Um, there was a lot, yeah. Um, yeah, my my boss, more of a mentor than than a boss ever. Um, that was something I brought to his attention when we first started working together. I said, here, check this article out. And then boom, here's he's sending me articles. Right. Um, he he's big into you, you need to see it from multiple sources before you believe it.

SPEAKER_01 42:03

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 42:04

It's huge.

SPEAKER_01 42:05

That's a great boss to have, by the way, the one who's mentors you.

SPEAKER_02 42:07

Uh that's I lucked out. I I I lucked out. Um, but at the same time, it in any position, um, expectations are handed down. You work your hardest to get to those expectations and you'll have a better go at it. Definitely.

SPEAKER_01 42:23

Do you want to you want to give your boss 30 seconds of glory and say he was your boss's name?

SPEAKER_02 42:28

Scott Gazda. If they're in this industry, everybody knows who Scott Gazda is. Um, he is the one who, like I said, has been a mentor. He hasn't been a boss. Um, the amount of contacts that I've met, um, Corning, Sumatomo, Expo, Viavi, Fluke, um, my Rolodex has grown in the last two years because of the people that he's introduced me to. Right. Um, you know, and and I don't plan on going anywhere. I'm not going anywhere. Um, but it's good to know that, you know, when when he retires or whatnot, I have all those same contacts and and they're going to be there for the next 30, 35 years. I hope it's not that long until I retire, but you know what I'm saying. They'll be there and and they're they're handy. They're a tool to keep in that toolbox.

Representing Credentials With Integrity

SPEAKER_01 43:14

You know, with getting a credential, there's a there's a certain amount of responsibility that comes along with that. And and what I mean by that is I remember when I got my when I got my RCD, I realized quickly, oh my gosh, now people are gonna expect me to know this stuff. Right? 2,000 pages, I memorized it to get past the test. Now they're gonna actually expect me to know this stuff, right?

SPEAKER_04 43:36

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 43:37

Um, so for the people going through credentialing classes, what responsibility do they have for as far as you know upholding the image of that credential?

SPEAKER_02 43:47

Uh staying positive, um, representing that credential. Um, I you know, I wear this this coat here, you know, it's a badge of honor for me. Um, you know, I I'm going to respect it and I'm To put the best foot forward for that cirque. Um on the other hand, some cases you don't do that, you might lose that circuit. Um and you said it a short short time ago. You're not gonna know everything, everyone expects you to know it. The key is where can I find that answer? Don't always be a yes man. You know, I'm not sure. Let me do some research and I can get back to you. You know, a lot of times you have the answer in five minutes, right, an hour, what have you, but that is much better than delivering something that you might just get misconstrued or or or twisted. Like I said, there's so much information you're trying to retain in this industry. If you don't get a couple of things twisted here and there, I don't think your head's fully in the game.

SPEAKER_01 44:48

And that's that's that's a great tip, you know, as an instructor, because you know, there's absolutely no way you can know everything. And you know, again, yeah, I tell students all the time, look, I know a lot, but I don't know everything. If I don't know, if you ask me a question, I don't know, I will tell you I don't know it. But because of, you know, I do a lot of volunteer work with committees within Bixie, I run a lot of engineering circles. Um, I'll get you the information if I don't know it. I will get you the information from a reputable source. Just yeah, but and you're right, it might take five minutes, it might take a couple of days because sometimes people I know are busy, you know, they're just they just they're they're just busy. And uh, but for me, I think the thing at the the the best part is that's a great way to be a black people are afraid to hear this. Talk to a customer. If you don't if a customer asks you a question you don't know the answer to, you and I both know.

SPEAKER_04 45:41

You don't want to fake that.

SPEAKER_01 45:42

Yeah, you can't fake that, right? And you and I both know that sometimes what happens is whether it's a student or a customer, they're gonna ask you a question that they already know the answer to. They just want to see if you know the answer. Yeah, and if you don't know it, the best thing to say, well, you know, heck, I don't know that one off the top of my head. Um, but you know, I know I do know the subject matter expert in charge of writing the T DMM. Um, let me reach out to him and let me because I want to make sure that I get this answer correct for you. That will win over the customer, that will win over a student.

SPEAKER_02 46:12

Absolutely. Um, you know, I I've had other technical trainers and good little not heated debates, but you know, it's going there. And and I just say, hey, relax, let me make a phone call. I'll call Fluke. Give him the give him the answers. Call Jim Davis. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 46:31

Jim Davis is a walking encyclopedia.

SPEAKER_02 46:34

You know where to find the answers. It's not worth an argument, and not everybody's gonna know it all.

unknown 46:41

Right.

SPEAKER_01 46:41

I appreciate you coming on the show, man. Any parting thoughts?

Should You Get Certified Or Not

SPEAKER_01 46:45

Uh the the thing we're talking to the person who's who's sitting on the fence. You know, one of the one of the I don't I don't understand this. People fall in two camps when it comes to credentialing. They love credentialing, they hate credentialing. Oh, I don't need a credential just to show that I can do this. I don't want I don't want to go, I don't want this is not this is not a you know, this versus that, but there's somebody sitting on the fence and they're just trying to decide to get a credential or not to get a credential. What are your what are your parting thoughts for that person?

SPEAKER_02 47:16

I I know exactly where you're coming from. You have this 50-50, people are all about credentialing, people are they don't want it. Well, I don't need that to do the job. I usually give them a nice polite challenge. Um, look around the country, find positions that are open, that are the same that you do here, and look at their pre their their qualifications and their prerequisites. If you look out at Las Vegas, LA, you look out towards Atlantic City, New York City, it's a low voltage world, and those jobs are requiring those certifications. Um that's where we're going to go. It's no different than an electrician's license. Um you're we're gonna end up needing that, or a certain percentage of us are gonna need that, and then you're gonna have installers that are gonna be more of your um apprentice apprentices, getting that credentialing, learning under your your wing and getting you there.

SPEAKER_01 48:13

Well, I really enjoyed this conversation. Always love talking to a fellow instructor. So because we we feel a lot of the same pains.

SPEAKER_02 48:20

Yeah, absolutely. The pains, and I mean, there's there's um the pleasure side of it too, you know, watching people walk out happy, shaking your hand. Let me get a picture with my instructor. And um, you know, that those young kids come into this industry and they've only been out of school for a couple of years, and they go, You have been the best instructor I've ever had. Um that just makes me want to get up the next morning and do it. Do it again.

SPEAKER_01 48:44

Donald, I appreciate you coming on, my friend.

SPEAKER_02 48:47

And I appreciate you having me on, Chuck.