Hollow-Core And Multi-Core Fiber Explained

We sit down with fiber optics expert John Bruno to talk about what is changing fastest in fiber and what those changes mean for real technicians and designers. We dig into hollow-core fiber, multi-core fiber, and MMC connectors, then zoom out to the mindset and habits that build a long career in the ICT and low voltage trades. 
• why fiber demand keeps rising with AI data centers and infrastructure buildouts 
• the case for trades and apprenticeships alongside college paths and the debt question 
• hollow-core fiber basics, why latency and attenuation matter and why price matters too 
• what hollow-core could mean for long distance and subsea networks 
• multi-core fiber explained, what multiple cores change and what it could replace 
• splicing, testing, bend sensitivity and crosstalk concerns with next-gen fiber types 
• MMC connectors for extreme density and why rack space drives connector innovation 
• how install speed improves while troubleshooting and repair get more complex 
• misinformation in fiber, common myths and how solid procedures beat ego 
• career advice for the next generation, learn daily, make mistakes and keep going 
If you’re watching this show on YouTube, would you mind hitting the subscribe button and the bell button to be notified when new content is being produced? If you’re listening to us on one of the audio podcast platforms, would you mind leaving us a five-star rating? If you find value in this content, will you click on that QR code right there? You can buy me a cup of coffee. You can even schedule a 15-minute one-on-one call with me after hours, of course. You can even buy Let’s Talk Cabling merchandise. 

Transcript

Welcome And Listener Support

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hey one of my monkeys, welcome to another episode of Let's Talk Healing. Today I have a special guest. Welcome to the show where we tackle the tough questions submitted by apprentices, installers, technicians, project managers, estimators, designers, even customers. We are connecting at the human level so that we can connect the world. If you're watching this show on YouTube, would you mind hitting the subscribe button and the bell button to be notified when new content is being produced? If you're listening to us on one of the audio podcast platforms, would you mind leaving us a five-star rating? Those simple little steps help us take on the algorithm so we can educate, encourage, and enrich the lives of people in the ICT industry. Wednesday night, 6 p.m. Eastern Standard Time, did you know I do a live stream on TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, YouTube, everywhere I can figure out to send a feed where you get to ask your favorite RCDD. And you know that's me. Your favorite RCDD questions on installation, design, certification, project management, estimating. I even do career path questions. But I can hear you never check them back on check them. Breathe in, breathe out, relax. I record them and you can watch them at your convenience. And finally, while this show is free and will always remain free. If you find value in this content, will you click on that QR code right there? You can buy me a cup of coffee. You can even schedule a 15-minute one-on-one call with me after hours, of course. You can even buy Let's Talk Cabling merchandise. So, as I mentioned, I have a really, really special guest on today's show. This person I've been following for a long, long time. I call him the OG of low voltage content creation. He has one particular video that is so good that if you ever sit in any of my day job classes, or any actually I mentioned on the podcast all the time too. I always recommend, hey, go watch the free two-hour fiber training course on YouTube. It's done by these guys here, FIS. His name is John Bruno. He is the master, master of fiber optics. His video has, listen to this, 1.7 million views. None of my videos have 1.7 million. And that's of this morning. By the time you watch it, it might be 2 million. Who knows? John, welcome to the show. How are you doing, my friend?

SPEAKER_02 2:48

Fantastic. I don't know if I can ever live up to all that hype. I'm gonna let my wife see that. Tell her, you know, remind her who she's married.

SPEAKER_00 2:56

Show it to your kids. That way they'll it'll it'll it'll elevate their respect with the kids. They could care less. Yeah, I know. I know. It's funny. I go to the big seat conferences all the time, and because because of what I do, a lot of people know me and stuff. And you know, my kids, they're like, that's just dad. Yeah, no, that's just dad.

SPEAKER_02 3:13

I was driving, I was in my vehicle and I have triplets, and they were in the back seats a couple years ago, and I'm driving down the road. I'm like, oh my god! Look, would you be like, Dad, what's going on? I'm like, look over there on that telephone pole. There's fiber and there's a splice enclosure up there. They're like, Really? Really? I knew right then they they could kill us.

unknown 3:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:36

Yeah, I got a similar story to that. I took the grandboys. Um, uh, we live in Florida now, but I spent the majority of my communication career in DC. And so I went back to visit my family, brought them with us because they wanted to go to all the museums. So I decided, instead of taking the beltway around DC, to cut through DC because traffic was better. So I cut through DC, and as we're driving through DC, I'm like, hey, Poppy did the cabling in that building, Poppy did the cabling in that building, Poppy did the cabling in that building, and eventually he said, Poppy, we get it. We wired up every building in DC.

SPEAKER_02 4:06

That's right. You're fantastic. Here's your medal. Move on.

SPEAKER_00 4:09

I said, Well, not every building, a lot of them, but not every building. But you know, kids, you're right, kids could care less. We're just, we're just, you know, we're just dad or or Poppy or whatever the case may be.

SPEAKER_02 4:19

I live in a small, small town in central New York. And for the last couple weeks I've been driving, like, there's stringing fiber everywhere. Like, wow. You know how many times I just wanted to stop and talk to these guys, and I'm just like, they're gonna be like, Why are you talking to me? I just want to be like, oh my god, what are you using? What's your splicer? What's your OT? I just drive by and it's like, oh, one day I'm gonna talk to these gentlemen.

SPEAKER_00 4:41

I've done that. I've done that when they when they put when they put fiber to the the house in our old place when we used to live in Plant City, um, and I saw them doing it. I actually went out and talked to them.

SPEAKER_02 4:50

And and they're like, I wanted to, did they did they give you were they open arms? Or they like, what does this guy do?

SPEAKER_00 4:58

Well, no, first they were they they they they thought I was just like a nosy homeowner.

SPEAKER_02 5:01

Yeah, exactly.

Humility And Learning In The Trades

SPEAKER_00 5:02

And and then I said, no, look, I work in communications, I deal with you know category cable, fiber optic cable all day long, day in and day out. I'm just curious. I mean, because most of the stuff I do is commercial, what you're doing is residential. So this is something kind of new to me. And I once I said that and put them in the role of of them being able to mentor teach me, their attitude shifted, you know. That's right, yeah. And I was actually really anything, right? Right, right. Because you know, think about what they do on a daily basis. Yeah, I used to I started my career out as a as a uh residential cable TV cable TV tech. And usually when the homeowner came out to talk to you, it usually meant they were either they were curious and they're just gonna slow you down, which you're being paid piecework, right? So you got to get it done, or they're there to complain. So of course, of course. Hey, you didn't you didn't put that in right. And so I made sure, look, I'm not I'm not here to QA your work. I've QA's lots of fiber optic jobs in my life. I'm just curious because this is residential and I typically do commercial. I'm just curious about the differences. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:02

Well, there's so many niche markets in fiber, you you just can't be an expert in every one of them. And what's nice here is, oh, you know, you know, well, first of all, I look like a genius when I use Google. Um, but also if if there's a market, and we have different product line managers, you know, I'm kind of weak on outdoor enclosures. I'm okay, but there's always someone to go to. I mean, it's more important to even know who you can go to for questions than to know everything. You just can't. You obviously can't know everything.

SPEAKER_00 6:33

You are preaching to the choir because I was just telling somebody just the other day, um, because um, who was? Oh, I was I'm I was I was talking to, I was doing a pre-show interview with with this lady who's gonna come on and talk about uh uh generational skills gaps and how do we address them and mentoring and all that kind of stuff. And we were talking, and she actually works in the low voltage industry too, but she works on the on the fire alarm side. And I told her, I said, you know, low voltage is like a tree, right? One branch is fire alarm, another branch is structured cabling, another branch is you know cable TV, and there are no experts in all fields low voltage. There's not. And if they tell you are, they're lying, right? The most dangerous person in the room is the person who says, I don't need to be in this class, I already know everything. Yeah, that's the most dangerous person.

SPEAKER_02 7:19

One of the things I preach too when I do my classes is you know, check your ego. How many times have you had someone say, you know, oh, this fuse and splacer, it's junk. And you're like, how much you pay for that thing? And it it couldn't be that you possibly are doing something wrong. It's okay to admit that that's not a weakness, right? That's a positive that you can say you didn't know something, and you talk, oh, oh, an art calibration? What is that? And you solve a problem. Just check your ego. It's okay. You can admit you don't know everything. I know less than I know. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00 7:52

That's and that's that's not only great advice for a student, that's great advice for an instructor. Because on more than one occasion, I've had a student actually teach me something in a class. Oh my god, that's a hundred times over for me. Yes, it happens all the time. And I'm like, oh man, I didn't know that. And if you don't, if you don't, if you don't try to learn one new thing every single day in this industry, you will get left behind. You got plain and simple.

SPEAKER_02 8:20

100%. Yeah, when a student teaches me something, I'm so grateful. I'm like, oh thanks. Or another one, if you ask you a question, don't make it up. So you know what? I don't know that answer, but I'm gonna look into it. Sometimes I'll stop right in the middle of class and Google it up. Here you go, here's what it is. And then I just learned something. I do that at work when we have a technical phone call, right? Don't trans me the phone call. Couple me in on the phone call because you're gonna ask me this question 20 times, or you're gonna learn it right now and you'll never have to ask me again. Yep. And so I always encourage them to merge the calls instead of just transferring.

SPEAKER_00 8:55

Signs of a great instructor. I do the same thing every class as well, too. You know, I tell them, look, even though I've got 43 years of experience, even though I'm an RCDD, even though I'm a Bixie Tech, even though I'm a former certified trainer, that doesn't mean I know everything. And if I don't know something, I know a lot of engineers back at my day job. And and because I've I've volunteered for different committees within Bixie, I know engineers outside of my job. And because of the podcast, I know engineers who I didn't even know before in different countries. So if I don't know the answer, I probably know some, but I'll give you an example. So I got to speak at um Bixie Cala in Costa Rica like a month ago. Oh, nice. And um, I I did a thing on bonding and grounding. And uh so during the after after the event, I went to the exhibit hall. I love going to the exhibit hall at those conferences, and this guy came up to me and he went, he was trying to ask me this question on bonding and grounding. And you know, bonding and grounding is a very technical subject anyway to begin with. Yeah, and it's hard for two people who speak the same language fluently understand each other sometimes with bonding and grounding. Yeah, I spoke very little Spanish, he spoke very little English, and uh, and then finally I was like, you know what? I know somebody who's an RCD and an instructor, and they're fluent in Spanish. I'll connect you two together, and that's exactly what I did.

SPEAKER_02 10:11

Yeah, of course, of course. Or the other day I had somebody, this is an interesting one, so they're using an SFP, uh 10 kilometer single mode buy-dye, bi-directional, and he goes, It was over multi-mode. I can't understand why this isn't working. Well, it's for single mode, and I did some research, and they do make what they call buy-dye multi-modes. I don't know if I believe it because it says 1310 and 1550. We don't sell them. And I said, here, and I forwarded him the website. I said, for 32 bucks, try these two. Uh, it's okay if I don't sell it. I'll give you, you know, another company's meme where you can go and get it. That's okay. Because they'll just come back eventually when they have other needs, but just solve the problem.

SPEAKER_00 10:55

That's really all you gotta do. Yeah, you and I both work for manufacturers, and and uh, and sometimes we get so hyper-focused on what what our day jobs make, you know, we kind of forget what sometimes what our competitors are doing, or some of the innovative stuff that comes out of the pike. And and so that's why I said that there are no experts. And the best you can be is just to yeah, look, if I can't get the get you the information, I know somebody who can get you the information.

Fiber Industry Growth And Labor Demand

SPEAKER_02 11:19

Yes, yeah, and also never never defane, never slash your competition. Don't put them down. Yeah, right. Yeah, they do a great job. Here's what I do. Um, don't you just look petty and small when you do that. Yes, because there's a lot of good companies out there that we don't sell their stuff, but they're still good companies, and I'll you will always admit that.

SPEAKER_00 11:40

Yeah, you know, it's it's just foolish. Yeah, low voltage is a big table and there's enough seats for everybody. You betcha, you betcha.

SPEAKER_02 11:48

I was looking uh okay, I did a little research, like I was saying, I was looking, uh they're saying that the fiber industry, because you do this every day, you don't think of the numbers. Fiber industry is like 10 billion, and now that's just fiber. And they're saying by 30, 20, 30, it's gonna be like 36, 35. Now you add in the component level, so we're at 10 billion. The edit of the components, you're at like 30 billion. Yeah, there's all we all can't handle it. It's it's a and and I think the estimates of growth they're talking six to ten percent. I don't know if your opinion is any different. Do you think it's gonna be? I think it's gonna be bigger. I do too. Oh, I do absolutely it's nuts. And there's actually a couple areas where I don't think they're focusing enough on.

SPEAKER_00 12:33

Right. Uh yeah, it's it's so bad that there's actually a shortage right now.

SPEAKER_02 12:36

I mean, there's long lead times before it's corning, corning fiber. You know, our cable plant uses 400% corning have contracts. If you don't have a contract with corning, there you won't sell you fiber anymore. Yeah, there's a big shortage coming, and I talking again, you get these steelers talking to Mike Learn at Coring, good man. You know, I I said, Well, what make some more plants? Okay, yeah, that's easily said. Give me about 10 years, right?

SPEAKER_00 13:01

Well, okay, so we're gonna go. Yeah, they don't just they don't just turn them out.

SPEAKER_02 13:04

Yeah, now we're seeing, I don't know if you've seen this, but multi-moat fiber has had a dramatic price increase.

unknown 13:10

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 13:11

Uh multi-moat's going way up, you know, 62 and a half for sure. Uh, and they're talking about things like germanium is in harder, shorter supply. And again, they don't want to focus on multi-moat, they want to make single mode.

SPEAKER_00 13:24

Right. They do. And you know, what's driving that is the AI data centers, other data centers, um, the the you know, buy America, build America, you know, the bead money, all that stuff is just driving, you know, a lot of purchasing right now. And it's it's impacting everything. It truly is. And that's what I was telling I was telling somebody the other day, uh, I did a comment on one of my videos. Uh, I actually took it, uh it was about um, oh, what's the guy's name? Um, the star that does dirty jobs. I can't think of his name. Oh, Mike Rowe? Mike Rowe, yes. He did it, he did a video, yeah, and he was talking about uh he was talking he was talking to somebody about you know electricians. That's his that's his thing. And uh and he said that he knows an electrician who makes listen to this over$200,000 a year working in the electricity. Of course. Of course. I put that so I put that out there, and somebody somebody actually said, no, you're wrong. I'm like, my I know somebody in this industry who is a low voltage guy working in a data center now, he makes more money than I do. And another data center offered him over$200,000 to go work for them, but he didn't want to move to move away from where he lives. Yeah. Oh, it's look, it's getting crazy.

SPEAKER_02 14:37

My my girls are going to college next year. What's I don't I don't want to poo-poo this, but what's the payback with college now when you can get into the electrician uh apprenticeships, you know, you can get into plumbers. My plumber, when I need him at my job, how's he like? Well, you know, I got a golf tournament next Thursday, and then I'm waiting for it. I'm like, it must be nice. These are skills that we need. I saw a report at the beginning of 25, said there's 800,000 fiber installers in North America, give or take. And they said by the end of 25, the demand is gonna be 1.6 million. They need double the amount of installers, and they haven't hit that level. There's a lot of work for people, and you know, you know, fiber, you're gonna make more money than someone who even copper. I'm not trying to poo-poo copper money chance, but you know, that's a skill level that is extraordinary to have. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:34

And if you can do both, you're worth even more. You can almost write your own check. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I I'll never I'll never talk bad about college either. I mean, I've actually just between you and me, no, nobody else knows this. I have three college degrees. I got them late in life. I went to college, yeah. So I got mine because I was I was uh I was I've been working for this company for about 12, 13 years, and all the positions above me that I wanted to go to the elevate to required a college degree. You bet. So I went and got the college degrees. And now I'm teaching and I don't need the college degrees, but so I never looked down on college degrees. My my brain doctor, I want him to have a college degree, right? You bet oh, you bet. Yeah, but the but the but the person who's writing an RFP, does he need a degree in in English literature? Probably not. Yeah, probably not.

SPEAKER_02 16:26

Yeah, you don't need your surgeon looking at a manual going, oh, right, okay. No, uh a hundred percent agree, but I'm seeing the kids coming out of college with massive debt.

SPEAKER_00 16:36

Oh, yes. Oh, absolutely. You know? Absolutely. The trade is a viable option, and the the the the whole mindset of going into the trades is becoming more accepted every day. It's you know, it used to be almost your guidance counselor in high school will try to talk you away from the trades. Um, but now, you know, again, the IBW's got to earn while you learn through the JATC and uh and companies now realize that you know, I I actually I was talking to a recruiter at an event one time and they told me they were hiring a bunch of people. And uh I said, well, what skill sets are you looking for? He says, breathing, reading, and willing to listen and show up. Because I can teach everything else.

SPEAKER_02 17:16

Sometimes that's the hardest thing to get.

unknown 17:18

Yeah.

Hollow-Core Fiber Basics And Costs

SPEAKER_00 17:20

Exactly. So, Bruno, you know, most of us spent the the majority of our careers pushing light through glass, right? Yeah, we do. Um let's talk about holocore fiber. What is holocor fiber and how is it fundamentally different from the traditional fiber we're installing today?

SPEAKER_02 17:37

So I don't know if you agree with this statement, but I've I'd say the last year, year and a half, have you seen the technology, especially related to fiber, change more rapidly and and how many multiple things are coming out?

SPEAKER_00 17:51

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 17:52

You can't keep up with I just we just I just finished my uh third revision on my most recent manual for my classes. You know, manuals have last year five, six, seven years, maybe. You know, I'm on my third revision in like four years. It's just bang, bang, bang. It's again, I I I'm about positivity, I don't want to be a downer, but do I think all of these technologies are gonna latch on and take over? You know, you've seen stuff in the past, it's like this is the big thing, and right where is it four years later? But I I gotta say, with all this new technology, something's gotta stick for sure. And holocore fiber, you know, I I get the concept. So basically, you're talking latency is the big one, right? How quickly we can get our data to the other side. Now, with glass, with your solid core glass fibers, uh, you're doing about 120,000 miles a second. If we replace that with air, we're doing about a just I'll give you the exact number, 186, 180. Oh, hold on. I can do it in kilometers. 299,705 kilometers a second. No human needs to know these numbers, but you're talking 120,000 about 186,000, just under. Right. But when you look at fiber and glass, the speeds, you're talking about a 64th of a second, you're covering 2,000 miles. Is legacy that big in okay? I get it, but so what's hollow is it's basically structures surrounding um basically a hollow air core. And there's there's two different versions. One of them looks like a honeycomb, one of them has like these structures of rods. Uh the honeycomb one is is really big for uh attenuation. You're talking about 30, 35 less attenuation. Uh the structured one is really the the latency. Okay, I get it. Um sometimes I think too though with technology, we're forgetting the everyday guy, too. Right, right. You're still gonna have a guy that runs 12 fibers between floors and he just needs some LC connectors on it. But the hollow core is very interesting and it's not going away. It's something that I've been hearing for like over a decade, but now it really seems to be catching up. I get it. Did you have you looked at any of the prices of that fiber?

SPEAKER_00 20:20

No, I haven't. What what's what's a what's the what's what's the current pricing? Do you know?

SPEAKER_02 20:24

I did some research. You're talking$500 on average a meter.

SPEAKER_00 20:30

Wow. Yeah. That has to be a good that has to be a really big problem to spend that kind of money when you already have a system out there that does almost the same thing, but not quite as fast. Agreed.

SPEAKER_02 20:43

And and I get it, you know, lower attenuation, we're always trying to reduce the amount of repeaters we need. Well, 35%. Better existence, basically. That's fantastic. So yeah, we're gonna see it. Um you that's where you're gonna talk about specialists, right? Holocore specialists, right? I I don't I've never even touched the stuff yet as of today. I don't know. Have you gotten your hands on it?

SPEAKER_00 21:06

No, yeah, I'm only doing the show because somebody asked me to do a show on holocore fiber and multi-core fiber. That's the right one doing the show.

SPEAKER_02 21:13

Yeah, now I was thinking before the show, add holocore and do multi-holocore. Is that a real I don't know if that's a reality or not, but don't say that out loud. We can invent that, become rich together. Well, patent pending. Um but holocore is definitely intriguing. Um what's it gonna do? I don't know. We have to be prepared, you know. You know what's running the entire entire industry right now, and you said is AI. You know, these AI data centers, and this is kind of what everyone's catering to. And it it's like a horse racing after a carrot, right? So what do we race after? When I was first in the industry in '96, it was uh you know, the dot com. And then oh, now it's fine with the home. Look at all. this money that's being put into i oh now we're gonna change over to ai but again as i said we can't forget that little guy but um that's how we grew as a company we we were the the what we used to call it the crumbs right you need a clean air you needed a cable but the but the holocore is is a fascinating subject and look if you see performance improvements which is what they're telling us then can you stop it i no i don't think so but you have to embrace it right so if it does become popular I'm not that guy that's gonna tell the industry to do this they're not gonna listen to me but if it does become popular there's a skill set right there you're a holocore guy I bet you're gonna be used a lot for so it's got a core inside how is the light I mean I know the light travels through air and you know we always measure our fiber as you know as you know the the speed in the vacuum of space you know yeah so I mean is the light how's the how's the so I'm assuming that the the core has to have some kind of cladding around it to act like a light for total internal reflection. I'm just so it's just it's just a hollow core there's nothing inside of it's a hollow core nothing in the core and then these honeycombs are these these areas of glass around that hollow core. So the glass is still keeping that light within the core.

SPEAKER_00 23:21

So that's so that's kind of so the the glass I'm like as you look in the picture while we're we're talking about it.

Splicing Challenges And Where It Fits

SPEAKER_02 23:25

So the the the the honeycomb the glass tubes around it are kind of acting like the cladding yeah that yeah 100% that's what it is yeah or they have these glass rods you know on the round so they go round round round like eight of them and that creates that barrier between the air uh but now what are your what are the issues right uh think about fusion splicing right right cords in the sound of that fiber we go and we zap it what happens when you have oddly shaped structures it you have to align these rods or these honeycombs so that five that splicer is gonna have to rotate those fibers to align them up that's some technology right there um I don't know if you're familiar with PM polarization maintaining fiber that's that's what they'll do they have elliptical cores or they have what they call the panda fiber and they have to rotate those well those are expensive splicers so obviously that's a challenge and they'll then they'll come up with answers. Initially like any new technology it's going to be expensive you know you when I started fusion splacers for$20,000 you can get a really decent high end splicer for three grand today. Yeah oh yeah you you absolutely can where where do you see holocore being being installed at uh AI uh one of the big ones is again reduction of of repeaters or amplification so sub C stuff right oh yeah like the because they're taking the Tat A cable out right now and they're replacing that yeah yeah yeah yeah so again when you when I'm looking at this pricing so okay you're buying in volume you're still not gonna go from 500 bucks a meter down a dollar right so you know I'm not the money guy when they push the money around maybe they're gonna they can justify that expense you know maybe I'm wrong on the money I did look at some of the pricing though and it was like and when you say this we have 17 plus thousand customers I've yet once been asked about Holocore right except for like this in conversation but I can foresee a day when when they're gonna start asking for assemblies.

SPEAKER_00 25:35

Well yeah it's like everything else I mean in there's economies of scale um if Holocore really gains traction and everybody starts asking for it you know manufacturers will find easier ways more efficient ways to manufacture and the price will come down I mean like I mean look look at the old uh the old uh VCR showing my age right now right VCRs when they first came out they were five six seven hundred dollars a you know a unit now you can buy them at Walmart for like 25 bucks a microwave I remember the first microwave we had we bought used and I remember the VCR we used to go to the rental store and rent the VCR we couldn't afford a VCR and again they're throwaways now you know they're they're nothing you know now I do multiple things like they're microwaves slash and they do like three or four other functions convention conventional yeah exactly it's like in my in our in our in our RV you know we get a microwave slash convention slash it does like six things I'm like I'm like I'm gonna be cooking on the campfire outside I don't care about the microwave now you when you mentioned is how core feasible you know I I did some research there uh right now they're claiming it's a it's a hold on I wrote my number down I I some of this stuff we gotta write down um so you got the walled and the honeycomb they're saying yeah my research showed between 500 I saw one company had it for$8900 a meter wow yeah it's it's absolutely ridiculous so they're talking right here uh growth so in 20 they're saying right now this is how I again economy of scale they're saying it's 1.2 billion is the is the expenditure in 24 that was on hollow cord really so again it must be real specialized companies um they're saying by 2030 it's gonna be 3.75 billion they're looking at about a 16 to 17 percent growth rate well there you go you can't hide from that so so so the tech who's listening to this show is this is Holocore something you need to learn now or is it like a five year or 10 year thing?

SPEAKER_02 27:52

It's one of those things where I'll mention it in class and I'll say just keep your eyes open. Watch for the demand and then you know when you feel it's time to jump in it's our rental department right we rent equipment eventually it becomes economic for you to buy the thing usually a lot of our good rental companies customers are purchasers of splice or no TTR. It's the same thing you know when you feel the time's right and you have enough job just jobs to do in in a loor then then jump in. But yeah just be aware of it and be ready for it.

SPEAKER_00 28:26

Kind of like fusion splicing was right when it first came out like you said they weren't they weren't cheap so only the big the big companies were doing it. Because now if now you can buy a pretty good quality fusion splicer for I won't say next to nothing but compared to what they were before they're certainly a lot cheaper. You see even the the medium and maybe even some of the small size low voltage contractors jumping into it now.

SPEAKER_02 28:48

You know we used to always say this even at$20,000 a fusion splicer actually isn't a splicer it's a money making machine. Right.

SPEAKER_00 28:57

It's just a bunch of hundred dollar bills out the back yeah I I see that all the time on the on the uh on the Facebook groups you know people saying hey I does anybody here do fusion splicing I got some stuff that needs to be fusion spliced and of course a couple people come back and say we do it and you're right that's that's that's just a money print machine.

SPEAKER_02 29:16

Yeah they make their own jobs you they hear you have one. And you know one of the things I stress too in class is when you do this your next job is incumbent on the job you just did. So do the best possible job you can that's advertising. It's like a uh my my mechanic for my vehicle or my doctor when you have a good reputation they'll never be out of business and so do a great job and then when these guys owners these business owners talk and say who did that fiber work? Well that looks fantastic.

Multi-Core Fiber And Testing Questions

SPEAKER_00 29:45

I got a guy for you oh absolutely and there's more profit in word of mouth recommendations than going on Google finding out who's the local contractor in your area well and also word of mouth can kill you too you do a bad like wildfire the owner of the company always says you know you're not gonna hear from a customer when you do a good job is when you do a bad something wrong or they'll just disappear right yeah word of mouth can kill you and it can help you. Yeah absolutely when do you think designers or estimators are going to start seeing holocor showing up in their specs depends on it really I guess it depends on your business. I mean are we going to see holocore and networking probably not but you're gonna you know I'm starting to see it too is uh cell towers yeah they've got these towers separated and they keep that little bit greater distance uh so if you if you're designing cell tower type work you gotta keep your eye open on on holocore also I think it's the same thing I think it's very similar to like the 6912 fibers right um they're they're out there I got I got a chunk of it sitting at the podcast studio um there it's out there but you're really not going to find that for like a like an intra building backbone cable like you that's gonna be a 12 strand or a 24 strand like that but but the data centers you know it's a lot more efficient because their pathway space is limited so going with a 6912 they can put more fiber in there in less pathway space so I think I think same Holocore follows the same rule here right it'll show up first in like what I call the elite networks like the the AI data centers the the Amazons the Googles and stuff like that um but like anything else in our industry you and I both been around long enough if it shows up there first and it gets adopted it starts migrating down towards us the trickle down effect yeah yeah I it's funny you mentioned I had a guy call me a year year and a half ago and he's like I got this 6912 I what am I gonna do?

SPEAKER_02 31:50

And I he says I'm gonna forward you the color spec the color uh code and and it it was it was a book can you imagine like I'm gonna need you to go out to fiber 5218 so you're like all right there but you know again with ribbon you know he was worried about the splicing it's like well you're not gonna do 6912 splices you're gonna do 576 oh because of ribbon still there's a lot of getting it right don't don't flip the five don't flip the ribbons make sure you got the right ribbon to the right ribbon and then literally a month later guy called up from uh so that first guy was Matt uh Facebook the other guy was working at uh I think it was a Google data center he called me up with 7700 fibers that should I've not heard that one yet that should that shouldn't be legal you know you do the math just for the raw glass the 6912 just for the raw glass price is about$500 a year so yeah it's not cheap legal it's not cheap hey let's shift our conversation now let's shift it to multi-core fiber there's another one yeah another one so what exactly is multi-core fiber and how's it different from uh say a traditional multi-mode or single mode fiber so it's funny when you talk about new technology this is the one that has been to me growing the most rapid the I'm hearing more about it much quicker like what it just showed up and then bang here it is multi-core fiber it's basically now excuse me it's gonna be your single mode world uh your typical fiber has a single uh core you know nine micron one cladding now you're gonna go four cores four cores that's that's a four times expansion in bandwidth i i i was I said oh they can go up to 32 cores in a single fiber just so it's actually 37 now wow 37 cores so what do we say the the bandwidth in single modes a single core single mode fiber is virtually unlimited bandwidth right 37 oh my goodness yeah and you know I did the research there um I've saw it as low as about three four dollars a meter for like the four core and I saw upwards of like 40 30 40 bucks for the for the large core stuff and so you're gonna simultaneously you're it's just basically that of four fibers you got one fiber does four the what the job of the four does right um I've seen that progressing pretty rapidly uh yeah we're getting inquiries on that so even above and beyond the the holocore stuff um now one of the issues too back to the holocore what happens if it's a subseed cable these are just things that come into my brain what happens if a cable breaks underwater they need to replace it or or Jesus doesn't it fill up with water right so what are you gonna put an air compressor on it and blow water out a couple hundred miles i i don't know the answer the ends do they do they fill up with debris because you got to keep them hollow and how do you polish them and so there's there's those issues and now we now we talk about multi-core how do we get so precise that we can hit you're talking about a fiber that's like the size of a hair that's 125 micron gliding how do you hit all four of those spots perfectly and how do they and how do they how do they line the light sources up the the four light sources up with the core and I'll do 37 and so um with multi-core they have what they call coupled and uncoupled so the uncoupled it's each each one is an independent pathway coupled right when they're a lot closer now they're making what's called like like a super mode they're actually coupling all of that light into basically one super mode and again you want me to explain it don't ask because it's it's so complex right uh but now what are the challenges splicing it so I went to YouTube a couple months back and I said well is there a splicer for this thing I found one video from a Chinese company I think it's China and what they do with the fibers if you've got the multiple cores right then you have to align them if you're gonna splice the splicer doesn't align them if you look at that fiber there's like a little pinhole and so that's the alignment and you've watched the splicer they show this this profile then all of a sudden they it's opens up and you see the cores and you watch it and it's spinning and and so that little pinhole because they're opposite is going to be opposite and they get those lined up and then they bring them back to this and then they splice well what's nothing gonna cost you know I don't know um these are the challenges but if if it's a technology that they deem feasible and something they want then they will figure that out but oof yeah it is I guess where I'm getting lost John is you know you mentioned it single mode right now has unlimited bandwidth we don't know how much bandwidth we can send across in fact in China you know with no Japan uh a few months back they sent 1.02 petabytes of data yeah across 1200 miles of single mode fiber yeah right now really need multi-core well the question is well to do that you have to multiplex so you're gonna have you know a hundred lasers pumping into one fiber now what are we doing 37 individual lasers i is it cheaper to have multiple cores than it is to multiplex again I haven't run I'm not the guy that's gonna run those numbers but right maybe ultimately it's cheaper to have the multiple cores but now okay how do you test it and how do you splice it you know I mean you said you said that the one Chinese company had that one splice that they can do that but you know that's not mainstream but not you know certification testing you had an OTDR that does single strap single channel do you have a cable that goes from the let's say four fibers four cores does it branch into four individual and then do you have to plug each one in as a test is there going to be a tester that'll test all of the tests at one time what's that thing gonna cost how are you gonna use it right so again more challenges um nothing in this world would proceed if we ever bow up to the challenge so you you know they take it on a lot smarter people than myself but and I've heard some other things where multi-core is super sensitive to bending loss so you you know the regular fiber you bend too much attenuation occurs I've heard and I heard this true with hollow too is uh it's kind of sensitive to to the the bending issues so what have we always done you know we've made bending sensitive fiber because we know the issues with bending and now we've got a fiber that's now back to the old school of oh it's super sensitive to bending i i saw where holocore they said initially when they were splicing it they were getting three to five decibels loss per splice well how does that so now you're saying well greater distance well that's gonna you know three dB is gonna take that's half your power loss that's huge yeah so how is we get how are you getting a distance advantage if you're having large splices loss but again that I said that I saw that that was initially maybe it's better now I I don't know you know and I'm excited to maybe get my hands on some of this stuff and mess around with it on a curiosity level I'd be super curious to play with that stuff.

SPEAKER_00 39:46

Yeah yeah you and me both I do the same thing with any anything communications related and you know this this gets me thinking because you know we got multi-core inside that fiber you know I always relate things back to things that I can understand you know like a four pair cable you know four pair cable um you yeah you worry about crosstalk between pairs that's another issue with multiple that's what I was gonna ask I mean it's obviously it's not gonna be EMI fields but now you got multiple cores close together would crosstalk uh you know photon crosstalk visual light cross would that be an issue with multi-core that's one of the things we're talking about is is is crosstalk interference we never worried about that with fiber that's something they're gonna have to consider again and of course you'll probably have to come up with testing standards what's acceptable what's unacceptable yeah no agreed where do you see multi-core fiber being deployed AI data center everything's with the AI and data center really uh like you said the trickle down effect all right I need to run 12 fibers get this 12 fiber single strand if if it's feasible and if we can get the electronics you know inexpensive enough yeah it it it could definitely trickle down you know again you and I we're retired this could be a whole new world you know fiber single score what are you talking about grandpa that was way when we used to do Model T floors motor driver really that there's that verbiage is actually showing up in my class more and more often now yeah because I tell people I said look I it's I I'm kind of excited with all the new technology recently you know with the last 10 years um but I'm also kind of glad I'm gonna be retiring soon so but okay I think I have the answer when you retire you're just gonna let it go no you're not you're still going to be best for me yeah you you know me and you know I will be I'll still be doing at some point when I retire from from from communications I will probably still be doing the podcast because I'm passionate about the industry right sure yeah and that's true it's true with teaching too you know when when you teach someone and they they're very successful boy that's super invigorating or when you have a class you know it's not high school you you don't have to be there so you chose to be there and you'll get the students say well the boss told me to come and and you get the guys that look down well they're looking at their cell phone that's fine do it in front of me you paid to be here but it's the ones that really want to be there yeah that really makes it worthwhile in your training and then later they'll call you I had a guy call me two years after I trained him he goes remember I go yeah you took it and such yeah he goes well me and my buddy were there for the company was going to get in fire they decided not to oh that's too bad. Well I want to let you know we decided to branch off and open up ourselves I said well how's it going yeah we have 10 crews we have 10 bucket trucks we have 10 spillers we have 10 on the TV I'm like no super proud super jealous after I heard it but fantastic and that's what there's your your passion right that that's what makes me happy yeah I love the students I love the students wherever and you you they they don't have to say a word you you sit in you you talk to you relaying a concept and all of a sudden it clicks and their eyes just go big as saucer you're like that's why I do this that's why I do this have you ever seen an industry that has more disinformation well yeah so disinformation yeah so you you know look at our acronyms right we're we're we're bad about that stuff I just got this conversation somebody the other day because there was somebody who's like oh no it's an MDF and an IDF that's the new term it's like no those actually the old terms I said it's really the MC the HC and the IC now I said but here's the thing MDF and IDF terms they're not gonna go away there it's just if if somebody is somebody's gonna call it an IDF and you know what they're talking about does it really matter as long as you both can communicate it you know and and because of that you know we have multiple acronyms that mean the same thing. We have one acronym can mean multiple things Things and we're always changing them. So it's hard. I mean, I don't necessarily consider it misinformation or disinformation. I think what happens is the people who write the standards, the people who write the best practice manuals, they're trying to make it more efficient and more understandable. And they that's why they change the acronyms. I don't think they're doing it just because they want to change acronyms. They really want to try to make the industry better. But the problem is it takes a long time, a long time for that new information to filter down. True.

SPEAKER_02 44:29

But what I get a lot too is guys that they've avoided fiber forever. They've worked in the copper space. And like I just can't avoid it anymore. And they kind of a lot of them learn on the fly, they learn incorrectly. Like they they assume, they take assumptions. And half my job is to I always say when we start, we're wiping the palate, whatever you think you know, just forget it for right now. And a lot of us are like, that's not how I thought it worked. That's not, I didn't realize that. I the ease here's the dumbest one in the world. I always say, can you strip the cladding off of the fiber? Sure, of course you can. No, you can't. That's a 250 micron acrylic coating. You can't know you can't strip glass off of glass. And so that's just a little piece of misinformation that kind of, you know, another one that's great. Fiber can kill you. I get this every once in a while. What do you mean? Well, if you get it stuck in your arm, it'll go to your bloodstream and it'll kill you. And I've had people scared to touch it, and you're like, Do you really? It's a splinter. It's not gonna kill you. But you on the in go on the internet and you can see where fiber will kill you. No, no, absolutely not. So there's a lot of things.

SPEAKER_00 45:35

It needs to be treated with due respect. It needs to be true with due respect. Of course it does. Um, but uh, I don't know. I've had see, I've had people, uh, I know of people who've gotten you know fiber sharps you know stuck in them. Uh it's not coming still alive.

SPEAKER_02 45:50

Yes, yeah. I've got I've got fibers currently in my hands. When you break a shard, right? If you had just cleaned it with a cleaning agent, alcohol or whatever, it's pretty clean. It's going to just probably stay there for the rest of your life. That's been confirmed. Now it hurts initially, but it goes away. It calcifies. If it had a little dirt or something on it, you know, it's gonna look faster over big, you might be able to get it out. It's not gonna kill you. But I think guys that the first thing is they're so concerned, though they'll say right off, you know, I'm a little worried about yes.

SPEAKER_00 46:25

When I run the fiber station in my training classes, because I do both copper and fiber hands-on in my classes, yeah. Um, the hardest part on the fiber is not the cleaving, not the insertion, not the crimping, it's the stripping of the fiber. Because they get so nervous. Yes, you know, they get so nervous they break the fiber. And on top of that, even the most experienced fiber people in my class, what happens is when they're when they sit down at my table and they go to strip the fiber because it's not their stripper. They develop muscle memory for their stripper, not my stripper. Yeah, and they end up breaking stuff. And then, of course, once they break something, because they come and say, Yeah, yeah, I can do fiber, and it breaks and it breaks and it breaks, and they start getting nervous, and that compounds the issue. And I'm like, just take a breath. It's it's probably a muscle memory issue because you're not used to my stripper. Because watch, I'll take the same stripper out of their hand that they literally just broke, you know, 10 times. I'll take that same stripper and just go, woof. See, it's it's it's my tool. I'm used to my tool. If you had your stripper, you'd probably be able to do them the first try.

SPEAKER_02 47:28

Well, how many times have you had a guy? Well, we'll do the hands-on. And if there's a big group, you're trying to bounce from and all of a sudden you hear someone just start cursing, or he throws a stripper. I'm done, I'm not doing this. No, we're doing this. We're just gonna slow down a little bit. It always comes down to the fact they're trying to strip too much 900 at this one time, or they're twisting the tool. Just get a good procedure. My point is always you can make a mistake. I don't care if you make a mistake. I've made so many mistakes, it's the only way I've learned. It's if you have a good procedure, you will get better at it just by the good having a good procedure. When you have a garbage procedure, then you continue to make the mistakes.

SPEAKER_00 48:09

Yeah, it's learning from the mistake. That's that's the key. That's all I've ever learned. Learn from the mistake. People people learn more from mistakes. Uh, I I you instructors don't like to hear this. People learn more from making mistakes and learning from mistakes and figuring out how to repeat that mistake than they do sitting in a classroom.

SPEAKER_02 48:26

100% agree. But don't give up. Get through the mistake.

SPEAKER_00 48:30

You know, I've had that happen before. I've had people give up.

SPEAKER_02 48:33

Give up. I've got guys give up, and I'm like, no. And and I just sit right next to them and say, let's do this little bit by a little bit. And then after you do it about four or five, six times, they're like, this is not bad at all. Just get the procedure down right. Right. 100%. I agree 100% with that with what you said.

Common Fiber Myths And Training Mistakes

SPEAKER_00 48:51

Exactly. So let's change the conversation. Let's talk about MMC connectors. Mm-hmm. You know, that you know, we've gone from ST connectors to SC connectors to LC connectors, and it seems like we're always trying to find you know more ways to put in more strands of fiber in less of a space than we ever have done before. And I think the MMC connector is the latest, the latest to that. So, what is an MMC connector and how do they compare to like an MPO?

SPEAKER_02 49:17

So an MMC, I don't know if we if we roll back around 2000. I don't know if you remember when they came out with the the SFF initiative, the small form factor connector. So everyone knows the LC connector. But if you really look, we got a handful of them at one time. We got, I think, like the MTRJ, the V. MU, yeah, MU. Now, okay, the LC won, right? Initially, I really you really knew it was gonna win because it had that familiar feral technology. It was it's a miniature LC. Um boy, I'll tell you, look, think of it as a as a distributor manufacturer. We had a tool up for like six new connectors. You had to get tools, pass core. I mean, the the procedures, and then oh, a couple years later, oh, those are all gone. You know, the volition, three, gone. So it doesn't even exist, you can't even find it. So again, it's about miniaturizing, and they miniaturize the LC. The little secret sauce was in a duplex format, it's the same size as an RJ45. So now we can have SFPs have the same footprint and and we can configure our switches. Okay. Now we go to the MMC is a VSF. Super technical, very small for a fact, all right.

SPEAKER_00 50:35

Our acronyms, I love the way they come up with some of our acronyms.

SPEAKER_02 50:39

I'll give you one that like drives me crazy. S T F C FC L C. Why would you name four connectors and share a letter with every connector? How about A D? That would have been easier. And how many times on the phone I heard SC, you said ST, that guy meant FC, or you show up at a site. Oh, yeah, I got STs, and it got SCs.

SPEAKER_00 51:00

You know so the people say, you know, I you know, I deal with you know engineers and stuff all the time. And yeah, you know, they when you're talking on the phone, they'll say a Sam Charlie connector.

SPEAKER_02 51:12

Sam Charlie, Sam Todd, Frank Charlie, Larry Charlie.

SPEAKER_00 51:15

To avoid that mistake.

MMC Connectors And Data Center Density

SPEAKER_02 51:16

Yeah. Why do you think if we get a custom order, it's got to be on a sheet of papers if they don't make too many mistakes made. So the MMC, they did it a little differently, is they didn't just have a standards committee and say, okay, because originally that standards committee, not throwing anyone under the bus, they were supposed to choose one as the standard. They said, nah, we'll just take them off. This time we got a lot of versions of small form facts, very small forms. MMC kind of won out ahead of time. It's just good, let's get some standards. U.S. Connect, uh, if you're familiar with that, they make a very, very top-of-the-line MPO connector, they call it an MTP. They're behind all this connector. Now, if you look behind behind, who owns US Connect? Who's the state and US Connect? Corning, Alcolo Fujikora, all right, uh what TTI. So, of course, you're gonna push your own product, and let's be honest, it's a great connector. And so an MCC, okay, the date, the ones and twos, right? So STs, ones, twos. Now the MPO connector would do 12, and then they went to 24, and then they have 16 and 32 for 200 gig, 400 gig. The MMC comes in either a 12 fiber format, a 16, a 24, and then also a 32. But it's one-third the size of a duplex LC. It's one third the size of an MPO. So you're talking three times the fiber capacity. And I I I was looking at some numbers again, you can't memorize everything. Uh, a one RU unit, a one rack unit, right? Which is what, an interesting quarters? Right. You typically would have, you know, 48, maybe 72 at the most fibers there. If you do an MMC, listen to this number. I had to write it down because uh it's just too good to be true. If you have a one RU unit for an MM VFS, VSFF, uh the the MMC, uh, you can go from 864 on the low end to 3,456 fibers in one rack unit. Holy smokes! Oh my lord. What's yeah, so you're getting three times the capacity of an MTO or a duplex LC.

SPEAKER_00 53:38

Right. And real estate space in a rack is extremely expensive. That's all it is. It's all about real estate.

SPEAKER_02 53:44

Yeah, yeah, we're living in high-end condominiums in New York City. It the price per inch is is expensive. And so the MMCs, so we just did a deal with US Connect. We're we bought like a million dollars in MPL stuff. We're doing a lot of their work for them because they're getting ready for this crush of MCCs. MMCs. Uh, again, here we go again. MMC means, by the way, I looked that up too. I never knew what MMC, I didn't even know what MPL. MPL means multi-fiber, push on, pull off.

unknown 54:15

Right.

SPEAKER_02 54:15

MMC means something. I can't remember. I looked it up and I wrote it down, but it's hard to look at my note. MMC is an acronym, too. Um look at AI. Everyone's we're moving to the data.

SPEAKER_00 54:29

That's what I'm doing right now. Uh I'm I'm looking up. What does MMC mean? It's like multi.

SPEAKER_02 54:36

And I wrote it. I just have way too, I did way too much in uh homework on how to do that.

SPEAKER_00 54:40

Miniature multi-fiber connector. There you go.

SPEAKER_02 54:43

Miniature multi-fiber connector. So let's look at an AI data center, right? So, what do you have? You have your upfront, this is where I'm talking to the world. This is my devices. What's behind all that? GPUs, right? GPUs are basically amazingly fast computers, and there's they'll have hundreds of them behind the scenes to process the AI. Each one of those has to be connected to the other one. So if you got it, just think of a hundred, one has to go to two, one has to go to three, one has to go to four, one has to go to five. Do you know how much fiber that is? And that's where you're getting your fiber consumption. So that MMC, could you imagine that much fiber and your traditional connectors? Again, that real estate, you're taking up a big population on that on that rack. So now we we're putting all these fibers in, and and that's really the niche market for it. Well, niche huge, is all this fiber in the background connecting all these devices. And but now think of it as a logistics standpoint. You know, where are these 16 going? Where are these 16? Where is the now? You got a problem, troubleshoot it. Now you've got 32 fibers and one connector. You put in a microscope, which we'll have to have those now. One out of the 32 is broken. Okay, now you gotta replace it.

unknown 56:05

Right.

SPEAKER_02 56:06

You know, the days of you just doing, by the way, hand policy, way of the way of the dodo bird. But now you've got to replace an MMC, and that's either gonna have ribbon or micro distribution. So now you gotta go in there, you gotta chop it, and now you gotta align all those fibers perfectly to a pigtail, and don't get the colors out of order, right? Now we've got the 16 colors. We mentioned the four extra colors. Uh you had it tan, line green. All of magenta tan a line. There you go. I always give them out of order. Uh, because you can start seeing 16 fiber cables for these connectors. You're gonna need some experts to maintain these networks, you know, and how to trouble too quick and how to get that thing back up. Time is, you know, money. They're bleeding. I read a report one time when one fiber goes down in certain applications and bleeding a million dollars a minute.

SPEAKER_00 56:55

Oh, absolutely. And and think about think about this from the technician's point of view, right? Um, so you know, when the the title, it wasn't that long ago. The title fiber technician really meant something. It really meant something. Yeah, yeah. But in today's environment with fusion displays on connectors and mechanical connectors, I can teach, I can teach anybody within 10 minutes how to become a fiber and fiber, you know, termonary fiber and then test fiber. So now the fiber technicians now are gonna be dealing with the MMC connector, the holocore fiber, the multi-core fiber, those higher skill sets. So they're gonna need more skill sets. And and and I'm not aware any of them. If you are, let me know. There's what tools are there for this? For like you're talking about doing a field termination of an MMC.

SPEAKER_02 57:45

Hot jacket strippers, because now you got to get on a ribbon, you got to get the matrix off, you got special cleaners. Think about this panel that has all these connectors. So now you got these little tools that'll plug them in. Now they have this pull push-pull technology, so you don't have to get your fingers all the way in. Uh, they actually have them now where you give them like a four-pack and you snap four sets in there. Um, yeah, there's all sorts of new tools. Stripping. Again, now you're gonna go from 12 count fiber splacers to 16. They're they're there. We've got 16 ribbons now.

SPEAKER_00 58:19

Yeah, and I know I'm gonna tick some people off when I say this, but yeah, I'm just gonna say I want to hear this. You know, yeah, some somebody big meat cleavers like me, right? But the whole I when we went from STs to SCs and uh then to LCs, I kind of get why we're doing it, but it makes it harder for somebody with big meat cleavers like me. And me. The best five, the best students that go through my class on the fiber side are women, right?

SPEAKER_02 58:47

I've been putting this to the quarter for so long. Women are really good, not even if their hands are smaller, they're very meticulous. Yeah, finds are hammers. You know, women are just very meticulous. You know, if you go next door where the 200 people are making cables all day, there's a large vast majority over there that are the women, and they do the best work for sure. Right. Hands down. I couldn't agree with you more.

Skills That Pay And Future Tech Teasers

SPEAKER_00 59:13

See, I'm I'm got I'm glad to know I'm in the same campus as as as John Bruno, the the the king of fiber training. There we go. So let me ask you to put on your uh your uh get out your crystal ball and polish it and look into it. What does what is MMC going to do to install time and labor costs?

SPEAKER_02 59:33

Well it's definitely gonna there's a there's a plus minus, Phil. It's definitely gonna speed up install time because if you're doing you know 16, 24, 20 click, click, click, click. Um it it I think it's gonna slow you down when it comes to the troubleshooting side, the repair side. You know, that's where you're gonna, and that's where you need your expert. And and when you think about these things we're talking about, holocore, multi-fiber, uh MMCs. It's like when you have a job, you started out like, and again, I'm just using this analogy. You're you were at McDonald's and you're the fry expert, you're fantastic. Now I want to be the burger expert, right? These are skills that are just going to elevate you. And maybe it's not the best analogy, it was the first one I could think of, but these are skills that you're gonna be invaluable if you have these skills. You know, they're gonna look to you to solve problems. Uh you need these skills, you can't shy away from these skills.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:31

Uh that's like comparing a line cook to a chef. What's that? Yeah, yeah. Comparing a line cook to a chef. You know, you're flipping burgers at the you know, even look if you look at the line cooks. If you are you flipping burgers at McDonald's or are you flipping burgers at five guys? Yeah right. See, you can you tell them I'm recording this during lunch break. Where's my mind going right now? Me too. I'm thinking about food right now.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:54

Before lunch, I gotta go get a dentist appointment. So I don't know. That's I'm really looking, I'd rather stick it to that podcast.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:01

Yeah, I hear you. Let me ask you one final question, Mr. John. Um, so let's say you got a room full of uh young, expiring, low voltage professionals, some some technicians or designers, and they're kind of listening to the show right now because I have them. I have 21,000 followers and I get questions all the time. Future you, that's awesome. Yeah, what's one thing that you want them to walk away with understanding better about the future of fiber today?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:26

Well, the it's kind of a multi-layered thing. Um, fiber isn't going nowhere. We will only use more fiber tomorrow than we did today. My company started at a$500 investment. Uh right now we're having consecutive record-breaking weeks. It's insane. Grasp the technology, don't be afraid of it. Go all in, learn everything, start basic, work your way up from the fries to the burgers. Uh, if you do, you're gonna have a lucrative and productive career. Just stay with it. And fiber every day is less scary to people. It used to be so scary to people when they were doing fiber.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:08

It used to be. Oh my gosh. My first fiber connector I did. We had this big machine, it looked like a like an LP player, and you had to put the you had to put the connector on. You literally had to polish the connector for 15 minutes.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:21

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, agreed. Yeah, polish machines. Very expensive, very high-end labor. And everything's getting easier. I yes, I know we have this new technology, but we're gonna latch onto it and we'll we'll figure it out. Um just don't be afraid of it, just embrace it. You know, my degree was in computer science. You don't see me programming. Uh, I saw an opportunity and I went with it, and it's been great. I I love it. And you know, I don't know if you've noticed this, but the fiber industry is large, but it's not large at the same time. Yes. I you know so many people that know that person, or you went from this company to this company, and you constantly are hearing these kind of loudly same names over and over again. Uh get your name out there, you know, do good work, be willing to sit and learn, make mistakes. I mean, you know, you can't explain, you can't replace experience.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:18

Uh and experience is experience comes from making mistakes and learning from those mistakes, yeah, not walking away from those mistakes.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:25

Yeah, and you know, real quick, I'm thinking of other things. Have you heard of POF? No, power over fiber?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:34

So you're really you're familiar with uh well, I mean, I'm sure I'm aware of hybrid solutions where they do fiber with two 12-gauge conductors. This is just fiber.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:43

So how are you putting power over fiber? So they but that that's the nut they've been trying to crack for 30 years. You know, fiber's limitation is we can't transmit power. So you know, you have power over Ethernet, right? Copper. Now they have POF. You can look it up. It's uh what they're doing is with the data stream, they're coupling, so they're gonna have a high-powered laser, and there's a device that converts the energy, right? The electric fo are electrons to photons, and on the other side, the device is gonna convert it back to electricity.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:15

That sounds like a future episode with you and me, Mr. John, talking about power over fiber.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:19

What about Pam 4? Have you heard about PAM 4?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:21

Yeah, I've heard PAM 4.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:22

So instead of going 1, 0, 1, 0, we're doing two at a time. 001001 or 1-1. Well, look what that's doing to your data, right? What about the new computers? The uh oh my goodness, what are they called? Uh uh I can't think of the name of them. Uh, they're gonna be processing data with qubits now.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:45

Yeah.

Power Over Fiber And Closing

SPEAKER_02 1:04:46

Quantum computing. Yes, quad bits. You know, I I talked to an uh so the University of Chicago called me a couple years back. They were doing this weird table, all these different PM fibers. They were testing, and I was talking to a guy, I just figured it was a purchaser. I think he was one of the world's best uh authorities on quantum computing. Uh he's the University of Chicago's a big, big one. And um I said, Well, okay, now that I helped you, you're gonna tell me what you're doing. And he started explaining quantum computing, and he actually sent me a lecture of his, which I was dumber after I watched it. Um I said, Well, what does this really mean to us, quantum computing? Well, he goes, as an example, there's this math formula that if we gave it to the best supercomputer today, it's like 1500 years or whatever to solve the math formula. Okay, he goes, I'm gonna give that to a quantum computer eventually, it'll be like three minutes. Wow. So with AI and quantum computing, you're going to so it's scary in one aspect when you have you know the bad folk, but you can solve diseases. You know, he said to me, he goes, What quantum computing will do for us is when we want when we have a problem to solve, it's not that we we can't we aren't asking the right question. To solve the problem. We don't know the question. The quantum computer is going to say, here's the question you aren't asking. This is how you solve it. So to me, that makes it very optimistic to me. Right. And then literally a month later, the university, I think, Texas or Houston called me. He was asking for the same type of cable. I go, wait a minute. Are you talking about quantum computing? Yeah. I go, what's what's what are you doing? Oh, working with the University of Chicago. Oh, okay. There you go. There's the link. Right. And I go, well, what are you using it for? Proving life on other planets. So now I'm like, no, no, no, you gotta stay on the phone. And he's oh, he says, basically, what we're gonna do is we're gonna see, you know, they could say their planets in like the green zone where they're where they could possibly have light. Okay. So we you're not gonna be able to focus on something that's six million light years away or wherever the distance is, right? Right. And he goes, No, what we'll do is using because we have this, they said they have the second or third largest telescope in in North America. He says, What we're gonna do with a quantum computer is we're gonna aim at this planet, and then using that computing, we can actually do like spectrophacy where they can see what's coming off of the atmosphere, and if they see a pollutant or a not natural occurring element in that atmosphere, that would be evidence that there's life on you know, and I'm just trying to hook up two computers doing 10 megabits, you know. We're just wire monkeys, just wire monkeys. The width and breadth of what fiber touches is is amazing.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:37

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:38

John, fantastic conversation, my friend. Yeah, I think it's I had such a good time. It went by so quick.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:44

It did, it did. Um, but I'm gonna have to I'm gonna have to bring you back on to talk about power over fiber because as you were talking, I did a quick search on it. 100 watts. 100 watts. Oh, did you look it up? I looked up while you were talking.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:57

100 watts. So think about your remote devices, like your cameras. Now we're running what? Oh, it's far away. Now we got a little fiber. Now the fiber got converted over to copper so we can do PoE. Nope. Right. Just plug in the fiber.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:09

Yeah, yeah. And that's that's that's the Achilles Hill right now. You know, they got that camera. I'm I'm doing a um a friend of mine retired a few years back, and and uh so now he's he's like on the board for this campground in Central Florida that uh they they the campground invites um these at-risk youth to come in, and and people come in you know with special issues and stuff, and they help them. And so they have a problem with the Wi-Fi. So we're looking at putting a Wi-Fi everywhere for them, and and also because it's a lot of youth, they want security cameras. And right now, my limiting factor is you know giving power to those cameras. Yeah, and if you have fiber, you can do through the power too. That's a that's an easy thing. And so you looked it up like that's no joke, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:08:54

This no, it's no joke. It's real. Now, again, is it gonna be expensive initially? But when it becomes an accepted practice, it won't be. Yep, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:07

Yeah, John, I'm gonna you're gonna you're gonna become a regular person coming on this show. I'm gonna have to bring you back on. I've been I don't know why I've been putting this off for so long. Maybe because maybe because I was afraid to talk to you, because I was uh I was afraid you'd be way much smarter than me, and and and that's true. You are way much smarter than me, but but uh yeah, it's fine because I watch your video so many times, and uh, I still yeah, I still do this every once in a while. And you might you probably do the same thing as an instructor, is um, and you know, every once in a while, because if like I if if I haven't taught a class in like two, three, four weeks, yeah, I'll go back and watch your video just to refresh my memory.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:40

Uh see, here's the sad part for me. I've been doing it for it'll be 30 years in August. Uh, and I've trained, we we calculate maybe 25,000. I can't forget it because it's so I've done it so much, I dream about it. So I wish I could forget about it once in a while. But ask me to change the engine in your car. No, it's not gonna happen.