Building The Backbone: Why OSP Skills Matter And How New Micro Certifications Fill The Gap

We dig into why outside plant is surging, how micro certifications work, and what designers and installers need to know to stay current and safe. Bob Herdling shares decades of insight on codes, methods, and the real‑world choices that make or break a build.

• OSP as the backbone of ICT
• Why broadband funding and BEAD drive demand
• Misconceptions about wireless versus fiber backbones
• Safety, codes, and NESC as core constraints
• Differences among aerial, underground, and direct buried
• Micro certifications structure and who they help
• Design and installation alignment through shared practices
• Why hands‑on OSP labs are complex and risky
• Career gains from targeted credentials
• Winter conference themes, formats, and networking
• Youth outreach and global volunteer growth

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Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome, Audience, And CTAs
• 2:02 Guest Intro And OSP Focus
• 4:51 Why Outside Plant Is Surging
• 8:25 BEAD Act Explained
• 11:17 Demand, Retirements, And Safety
• 14:30 Who Micro Credentials Serve
• 18:14 Design Versus Installation Balance
• 22:14 Difficulty And Curriculum Structure
• 26:02 Why No OSP Install Training Labs
• 29:05 Career Impact Of Micro Credentials
• 32:03 Where To Learn And Next Steps
• 34:30 Winter Conference Themes And Format
• 38:10 Skills Challenge And Youth Outreach

Transcript

SPEAKER_02: 0:00

Hey my monkeys, welcome back to another episode of Let's Talk Camelin. Today we're talking about some updates in micro credentials coming from Big D. Welcome to the show where we tackle the tough questions submitted by apprentices, installers, technicians, project managers, designers, RCDDs, customers, and everybody in between. We are connecting at the human level so that we can connect the world. If you're watching the show on YouTube and you like this content, would you hit the subscribe button and the bell button to be notified when new content is being produced? If you're listening to us on one of the audio podcast platforms, would you mind leaving us a five-star rating? Those simple little steps help us take on the algorithm so we can educate, encourage, and enrich the lives of people in the ICT industry. Wednesday nights, 6 p.m. Eastern Standard Time, what are you doing? You know I do a live stream on TikTok, Instagram, LinkedIn, YouTube, everywhere I can figure out this in the live stream where you get to ask your favorite RCDD. And you know that's me. Don't even try to pretend like you're not. Your favorite RCDD questions on installation, design, certification, project management, estimation. I even do career path questions. But I can hear anybody. Chuck, I'm driving my truck, it wins my north, it's 6 p.m. I don't want to get into an action. Relax, take a breath. I record them, and you can watch them at your convenience. And then finally, while this show is free and will always remain free, would you click on that QR code right there? You can buy me a cup of coffee. You can even schedule a 15-minute one-on-one call with me after hours, of course. So one of the things I truly love about our industry is it's always changing, always evolving. It's never the status quo. That's why it is a challenge to stay current in this industry. Well, my guest today is one of those people who does not need an introduction. In fact, he's been on the show before. But I'm gonna give him an introduction anyway. My guest is Bob Hurtling, RCD. He he is head subject matter in charge, he knows everything. He has probably forgotten more about this industry than I know about this industry. And that's why I try to surround myself with people way smarter than me. And two bixies ago, he told me about this whole micro certification thing coming down the pike, and then and I didn't want to do a show on it till the dust settled and we all kind of knew what was going on. Well, guess what? The dust is settled. Bob, welcome back, buddy. How are you doing, my friend? I'm doing well, Chuck. Thanks for having me on on board. My pleasure as always. So for the for the one person who's never heard of you before, because you're you're well known in this industry, for the one person who's never heard of you, just give us the 50,000-foot view of who you are and all the things that you do.

SPEAKER_01: 3:16

Okay, uh, I'm Bob Herdling. I am an RCDD and an outside plant designer. I am currently a uh freelance uh commun uh ICT designer. Uh I have almost 50 years in the business, starting with 23 years with the United States Coast Guard as a telephone technician and an electronics officer. And since my retirement back in 1999, I've worked for uh various architectural engineering firms uh doing ICT design and construction oversight uh on some rather marquee projects like the Big Dig up in Boston, East Side Access down in uh New York City, and uh the extension of the people mover out at Chicago O'Hare Airport. Uh currently I'm supporting the new Hudson River tunnels for Amtrak between New Jersey and New York. Uh been a Bixie member now, it'll be 25 years uh come January. And uh I'm currently the chair of Bixie's Technical Information and Methods Committee, which is the committee that's responsible for a good portion of the Bixie manuals and publications that support the credentials. And uh beyond that, uh you know, I have my fingers in just about every part of the ICT industry to one degree or another.

SPEAKER_02: 4:47

Yeah, I know I see your name everywhere on everything. One of the things I want to I want to kind of start off with is it seems to me, and correct me if I'm wrong, it seems to me like the OSP side of our industry, a lot of people tend to overlook it or look down upon it when it's really it's the backbone of our industry. We wouldn't have communications without outside plant.

SPEAKER_01: 5:13

That's true, Chuck. Yeah, the the outside plant portion of ICT, obviously, it doesn't change anywhere near as rapidly as what the premise or the network environment does. But yeah, it's a critical component. Uh, if you think about it, you have a premise, and unless you're totally self-contained, you're gonna need outside plant to communicate with the rest of the world.

SPEAKER_02: 5:37

Oh, absolutely, 100%. And you know, that's why it always kind of puzzled me. You know, I kept seeing all these revisions, right? Revisions to the TDM, revisions to the ITSM, revision to the the field guides, but it it felt like the OSP manual was the redheaded stepchild, right? It was getting it kept getting kind of like overlooked and overlooked, and but it's it's really becoming a big deal again, right?

SPEAKER_01: 6:00

Very much so.

SPEAKER_02: 6:01

What do you see driving all these big changes towards outside plant?

SPEAKER_01: 6:05

Well, I think probably one of the biggest ones is broadband deployment. You know, with the push to try and extend high-speed, you know, network services to you know just about everybody, not only in North America, but throughout the world, there's a big demand for outside plant designers and installers to be able to make this happen. You know, case in point here in the U.S. is the BED Act. That's driving a lot of investment, particularly in rural and other areas that are underserved. And at the same time, the um the regular telecom industry has seen a spate of retirements of experienced outside plant people, you know, your companies like your Verizons, your ATTs, and that. And they're scrambling to replace a lot of that knowledge that you know is in people in my age group and maybe 10, 15 years younger. So, and the the other thing is, you know, people talk about, oh well, we can rely on wireless and satellites. Well, at some point, folks, there's still a physical connection to be able to talk to those devices. So that's where outside plan comes into play.

SPEAKER_02: 7:21

That that's a tale as old as time, Bob. I I swear to God. Because um, you know, I function in a lot of online communities, and and of course, there's people who have as little as one or two days' experience to people like you or me who have 40, 45, 50 years of experience. And one of the things I almost always see is, why are you pulling cable? We have wireless. I'm like you you do realize that wireless is connected to a cable. And you do realize that wireless is shared bandwidth. You do realize that wireless is susceptible more so to hacking and stuff. So wireless is or satellite is not always uh it's always gonna be, there's always gonna be case, you know, justifications and case studies for absolutely, but people who say that you know cable's gonna go away because everything's gonna be wireless, they they don't talk about. They just don't. Um, you did mention one thing on there. I know what you're talking about, but I've got a lot of listeners who may not know what you're talking about. Can you tell us briefly about the BEAD Act?

SPEAKER_01: 8:25

Okay, what the BEAD Act is here in the United States, it's a government-funded program that provides money, more or less, to support broadband build-outs in rural areas and underserved areas where traditionally a regular incumbent carrier or even a cable TV company would find it too expensive to either expand service or build out new service to that location. I mean, primary you can think of, you know, particularly some of the western states, you know, places like Wyoming and Utah, where the population density is such that you know to build out without some type of financial support would not be cost effective, maybe for a local carrier. A good case in point that I saw recently on one of my trips south was the eastern shore of Virginia. They have actually formed a uh nonprofit that is actually building out a fiber network to provide broadband services to you know the population in those two counties in that you know northern area of Virginia.

SPEAKER_02: 9:41

Yeah, that's you know the the BED Act is it's bringing a lot, it's bringing money to a lot of things that we need. I mean, you talk to anybody who teaches um fiber, fiber installation, fiber termination, fiber certification. There's a lot of classes out there being pushed right now because the massive need for that kind of a tradesperson, right? So let's let's talk about the micro certification. You again, you and I talked about it, I think like two years ago, one of the committee meetings, and uh it was it was starting being talked about. And then finally, when I interviewed John Daniels at uh Bixie Beyond in Vegas, he finally announced it, right? He announced that there's this new micro certification for us. And I I honestly think it's a great idea because you know I've got 40 coming up on 45 years experience in this industry. I've done direct buried, I've done uh underground, but I've never done aerial. You know, so I think micro certification is a great way to get those certifications you need now to work up to get the entire picture.

SPEAKER_00: 10:41

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SPEAKER_02: 11:27

Why do you feel that this is the right time to launch a microcertification in the industry?

SPEAKER_01: 11:33

I think there's a couple of reasons, Chuck. Number one is you know the demand for outside plant trained individuals, both in the design and the installation side, because of, you know, one, as I mentioned, you know, the fact that the incumbent workforce is graying out, so to speak, and there's so much new work coming down the pike. The other thing I think is traditionally, if you look at any of the major carriers, you know, even going back to the legacy bell system days, pretty much outside plant was siloed into three areas aerial, underground, and direct bury. They had their own engineering staffs, they had their own procedures, they had their own uh methods, and very seldom did they meet, except maybe at a transition point, and that was usually a splicer's function. So the other thing that's changing too is the fact now that the workforce has become more splintered since the divestiture of ATT. You now have a lot more independent contractors, installers, and outside plant tax, whereas in the past this was a pretty you know closed group that was limited to the incumbent, you know, telecommunication service providers. Now, that's good in one respect, but at the same time, you probably noticed it's become the wild, wild west out there when it comes to some of the installations and the designs that are being done. And just like premise ICT infrastructure, there are codes and regulations that apply to outside plant. And you're dealing with a unique environment. You've got an environment that's exposed to the elements. You're dealing with installations in some cases that run over property or on property that doesn't belong to the people actually running the cable. You have to concern yourself with safety to the public as well as the continuity of service. So that work, that's what makes outside plant unique in a lot of ways. And at the same token, it requires a special skill set, not only for the design, but for the installation, because you're working with heavy equipment, you're working in environments that you know you could be knee deep in snow one day, and then the other day it's 112 in the shade. Right. So, and you know, there's risks involved. You know, you're you're dealing with chances of you know contact with electrical power circuits, you're dealing with uh elements of weight and tension and that that if you're not careful can seriously hurt or kill somebody.

SPEAKER_02: 14:28

Oh, absolutely. And and you mentioned, you know, the environment, and a lot of people just think outside, they don't think past that, but you know, outside, are you talking about like the myaka sand like here in my backyard? Or are you talking about the red clay in Georgia? Are you talking about the uh you know Hawaii where everything's all was uh it's all volcano rock? You know, those are all three different, very different environments. All comes with their own challenges, all comes with their own, you know, skill sets needed. I really I'm I'm really excited about this, about this micro certification. Let me ask you this, because you know, there's a lot is this certificate, these new micro certifications, who are they designed for and who's gonna benefit from them the most?

SPEAKER_01: 15:11

Basically, that they have a couple audiences. Number one, for somebody that just wants to get involved in outside plant from the design side, if they want to focus on a particular area to begin with, say their interest is in underground outside plant. Well, they can do that and they can get the certificate. And as time goes on, if they want to move into one or two of the other areas, you know, whether it's aerial or um direct buried, they have that option as well. You know, I do have to say there's probably very few people that are you know versed in all three areas of OSP. I happen to be one of the few. Uh some of my other Bixie colleagues, like John Adams and those people, but normally people tend in outside plant to you know focus only on one or two areas simply because, as I mentioned before, there there are different design considerations, there's different installation uh concerns, so it it's unusual but not unheard of to be you know be qualified in all three areas.

SPEAKER_02: 16:25

I I I really feel that the reason for that is when you look at what I call the old school, the old guard, and that's there's no disrespect there. I I mean that's with pure love. When you talk about like you and John Adams and Phil Cleansmith and and all those other people, when you look at their backgrounds, right, all of almost all of you guys come from ATT, ATT long lines, right? And then there was a after Divester, there was so much of a shift where people were doing their own outside plant, like for own their own property stuff. And that's where you get the people like me who might have done direct buried or might have done um underground, but like I said, I've never touched aerial, and I think that's the reason it's driving driving most of that. Let me ask you this. So is this really gonna is this this micro certification, is it really is it aimed towards people who don't have their current OSP certification, or can somebody who has an OSP certification also get those micro credentials and would it be any value for that person?

SPEAKER_01: 17:22

No, absolutely. Those people that already hold the OSP design credential can you know go through and obtain the certifications as well. And I think the important part is that it's a way to stay current with what the trends and uh you know the changes in codes, regulations, and industry best practices are an outside plant. Now, like I said, it doesn't change anywhere near as fast as what we see in the premise environment, but there are still changes. And this is one way for people who do hold the outside plant designer credential can stay current. Because as you know, Chuck, you know, one of the things it's very difficult to get outside plant updates, you know, in seminars or training in that, and you know, because it's such a specialized area. But nevertheless, the the changes do occur. Um just case in point, uh, we're in the process of updating the National Electrical Safety Code, and that is to outside plant what the NEC is to premises ICT infrastructure. So there's that, and you know, the fact that since the breakup of ATT, there really hasn't been available to a lot of the outside plant world installation and construction standards because a lot of that was kept very close to the chest, you know, by the ATTs, the GTEs of the world with their respective practices. So one of the things Bixie has done is we have created outside plant construction and installation practices to help supplement the little bit of material that might be available to uh contractors and designers.

SPEAKER_00: 19:18

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SPEAKER_02: 20:02

Let's talk about the the balance between those people installing outside plant and those people designing outside plant. My brother is one of those. He's he does he's the he's a outside plant I'm not sure he's not even sure what his title is anymore, but he he's he's like a foreman or general supervisor. I I I couldn't tell you. I'll have to ask him when I see him in a couple weeks. So these this new micro certifications, right?

SPEAKER_01: 20:33

Well one of the things Bixie has done is the mic the individual volumes that we created to support the each of the each of the micro certif certificates is also paired up with the corresponding uh outside plan construction and installation standards that Bixie has already issued. And you know obviously for the certificate to uh obtain it you know it's mandatory that you go through the design document but at the same time Bixie also recommends that you obtain the CI prac or standards that apply to that particular variety of outside plant. So I think that that's a good pairing there because I think in order to be a good designer you have to understand what the construction and the installation crews have to do and at the same time the um those folks also get a feel for okay what's driving why we're doing this particular job this way you know they may not know about all the code issues or all the regulations but it gives both sides uh you know more or less to put themselves in the other side's shoes you know to get to get a feel which I think ends up you know creating much better project outcomes.

SPEAKER_02: 21:58

Absolutely now I I want you to I want you to be honest here now Bob what is the what's the degree of difficulty for these microcertifications are we talking like RCD study test exam or are they going to be more like hands-on boots on the ground kind of stuff?

SPEAKER_01: 22:14

Most uh for the design side the um it's more or less reading through the material that's in each one of the volumes depending on you know which particular micro certificate you're going for now one of the things I will mention is that we have one of the volumes is a general we you know general criteria that applies to all types of outside plant it covers things like safety precautions it covers cable types it covers um you know some of the the uh the design considerations that go in you know of selecting a particular type of outside plant so that particular volume is common across all of the micro certificates then the other volume covers you know a specific area aerial underground direct buried and also we do have a fifth volume that's currently going through final development for outside plant passive optical networks so that will be coming out you know probably sometime early next year. Oh nice but um you know you mentioned the hands-on part and one of the things you know people have asked me personally is why doesn't Bixie have you know an outside plant installation program and quite honestly there there's several reasons for that number one is you know the facilities that you need to set up to do outside plant construction and installation training that's you know that and that's a high cost element but probably the bigger one is the amount of attention you have to pay to safety and you know making sure that nobody gets hurt.

SPEAKER_02: 24:06

Oh yeah you especially with you know like so you get into trenching and and spoils piles and and and and honestly you know I I've been to the I've been to Bixie headquarters I've been there many times and there's really no place right there nearby where they could practice digging and doing spoil piles and and and what and demonstrating OSHA standards for as far as safety and stuff. And it's just just there's no room there.

SPEAKER_01: 24:32

Yeah and just to give you an example of some of the the issues that are unique to outside plant one of them is you know when you're entering a maintenance hole is testing for a suitable atmosphere and knowing what the limits are knowing how to ventilate and then there's issues with okay what do you do if you open up a maintenance hole and you find it's filled with something like gasoline or fuel oil or something else that's leaked in. There are all kinds of precautions you have to take and even some of the simpler things for example you know up here in New England some of the localities have restrictions on disposing of water that's in a maintenance hole you can't just pump it into the street. You know you may have to bring a vacuum truck in and actually have it vacuumed out because of the the uh potential for contaminating a local waterway.

SPEAKER_02: 25:32

Oh that makes sense you know I never thought about that but you're absolutely right especially as environment environmentally conscious as we are now which is which is a good thing but but it means we got to jump through extra hoops. You know one of the most common questions I get all the time when I start talking about credentialing or certifications is the first thing almost comes out of somebody's mouth when I start talking about it is well how is this going to impact my career, right? So let me ask you this do you see the microcertification helping somebody professionally whether they're a tech or maybe even a designer?

SPEAKER_01: 26:02

Absolutely. Yeah I I think you know both sides can benefit from it just like both sides, you know, and you and I have discussed this previously of designers you know benefiting from knowing the information that's in the ITSM and installers and techs knowing the information that's in the TDMM. I think the same is true with outside plant.

SPEAKER_02: 26:22

I'm pretty sure we probably piqued somebody's interest by now with all this because like I said with especially with the BEAT Act and all the money being thrown at building up that infrastructure because you know the the the outside plant infrastructure is kind of like kind of like our electrical grid it was ignored for a long long period of time and there will be a time at some point in the future where we're gonna wake up and realize our grid electrical grid's in horrible shape and we need to fix it immediately especially with the with the drive with AI data centers and all that power crop and stuff like that but OSP's gone through that same well I think we're finally waking up to that and and hopefully and there's there's career opportunities there. There truly is if if somebody's fired up about this where can they go to learn more about these micro certifications and stuff?

SPEAKER_01: 27:08

Well obviously for the the micro certifications Bixie has a page on the website that describes them and shows the um you know the information as far as what's in the individual volumes as I mentioned they've also paired them up with the corresponding construction and installation standards that we've developed there's information on the uh what the con you know basically what the content is what what you can learn you know what the procedures are uh what the cost is and for somebody that may be just starting out this might be a good way to be able to move up into a full outside plant designer you know by doing it in increments you know when I took my outside plant exam you know we were expected to know it all I was fortunate that my career in the Coast Guard I did all three types you know both design and installation and but I know for a lot of people that can be a big list.

SPEAKER_02: 28:13

Yeah I I hear you I'm I'm excited about I want to I can't wait to the conference to to to learn more about it. Which by the way we got to talk about the elephant in the room right the conference is what four weeks away I think maybe something about five six away I think is what John said today.

SPEAKER_01: 28:29

Yeah so I I know you're gonna be there yes and I'm 99.999999% positive I'll be there right I think the theme this year is what I think it's I think it's foundations for the future or something else if I remember right yeah okay and that's kind of a bold theme it it truly is um what do you think that signals about where the industry wants to go well I think it signals a couple things Chuck um number one I think the um Bisho's trying to move and show more of just okay we are more than just cabling and connections you know and start more fo and I shouldn't say start focusing more but seeing what we actually what's we're providing you know whether it's okay we're supporting security systems we're suppl supporting audiovisual systems we're supporting SCADA we're supporting you know any number of things it's not okay we're the cable and wire guys you know it's like here's all this this information the systems and that that depend on ICT infrastructure to operate and do what they're supposed to do.

SPEAKER_02: 29:48

Yeah the for me the winner is always my favorite conference to go to because well number one it's in my backyard you know I don't have to get on a plane and fly anywhere I could literally drive over there and and then just grab a grab a hotel right there.

SPEAKER_01: 30:04

Why do you think people should uh should show up at the at the winter conferences here what do you think well I think again as I mentioned you know is the the topics that will be discussed also the format of the conference has changed you know we now have things like lightning rounds and um you know uh trying to think of some of you know the other terms that they're using but the the presentation format has changed over what it was where it was like okay you know an hour of this an hour this there's more quick hitters now and there's more what I would say interactive possibilities than just simply sitting in a room and listening to somebody talk or give a PowerPoint presentation. Yeah no I hear you and and I think you know as always the winter conference too always provides the cabling skills challenge which is always you know a hit with a lot of people and one of the things I just found out today is that there's going to be a group of high school students that are coming in um for uh you know to get familiar on the first full day of the conference which I think is an excellent idea you know because that's our future right there is oh absolutely yeah I got I saw that I saw that email as well and and uh and I volunteered to because they want to do a couple of events and stuff like that and I volunteered to do that as well because you know I I I was talking to my I was talking to my oldest grandson I told you I had all 10 before we start recording that we had all 10 grandkids here at the house for for you know Thanksgiving slash Christmas and my oldest grandson he's he's 19 he took some uh electrical classes in the the high school that he goes to over here in central Florida and now he's working as a manager at I want to say checkers and so him and I were talking and I was like I said why why did you you took electrical classes in school why did you not pursue that and he goes oh I just I just haven't done that yet Poppy I'm like do you know how much electricians make and then I told him he goes oh and I said I said in low voltage you know you you can't you know it's a pretty good living in low voltage too Poppy does look what all the stuff Poppy's got you know and so there's so you know that's why I'm really excited about this high school thing.

SPEAKER_02: 32:24

I true I I I I can't wait for it. I really think I really think that it it signals to the community it signals to people outside of the industry that we are invested in like you said the graying out you know we got we have people retiring and and people leaving this industry for other reasons. We need to we need to we need to fill that up and it's yeah and and you can tell me if I'm right or wrong here one of my favorite things about going to the conferences is the hallway conversations right those are the unplanned conversations as you're walking between between you know two different events and you can either you meet somebody new or you see an old friend that you haven't seen in a long time there's so much information so much knowledge transferred in those hallway conversations.

SPEAKER_01: 33:10

Absolutely the networking opportunities at a Pixie conference I don't think there's anything else that I've been involved in that have that degree of being able to meet people you know see old friends make new ones and something that just happens just out of the blue and it it's it's amazing you know and you know in my position as a committee chair it also gives me a chance to recruit you know or answer questions or people wonder well how do you guys actually do this you know how do you bring a manual out to you know publication and I enjoy that you know it's be able to explain that and you know people ask me why I volunteer and I say folks I said I have a saying that a bad day of volunteering for Bixie is still phenomenally better than any day I've ever had on the paying job and the reason I give why I do as much as I do is because people generally appreciate what I do and that's the real reward.

SPEAKER_02: 34:13

Absolutely see the the light bulb come on when you explain something to them and they all and they understand it because you took time to explain that to them. And then and then because of that a lot of people don't realize it because of that you've gained a usually gained a lifelong friend. Can you help? And it's it's it's a phenomenal opportunity for for networking it truly is Bob you always bring good stuff to the show. I appreciate you breaking down the new OSP micro certifications and a quick little glimpse to the to the winter conference for 2026. I'm so looking forward to that I appreciate you coming on the show my friend yeah no and I hope any of the audience that we you know get to come to the conference you know come on down you know our committee meetings if you you want to attend as a guest just let me know uh you can either text me email me or even catch me you know before we have the uh committee meetings uh you know if you want to get a feel for what goes on behind the scenes uh by all means you know please contact me you know people can reach me you know I had through my LinkedIn profile I'll put your LinkedIn profile in the description below so that way yeah that way people can get a hold of you who who might be interested because you know I've I've I've you know a a very close friend to both you and I passed away just this last weekend and and I've been seeing a lot of condolences and stuff and and I tell everybody thank you so much but if you want to honor that man's memory pay it forward like he did. So I'm I'm hoping that because of that we'll get more people volunteering and stuff now especially you know I I truly do.

SPEAKER_01: 35:54

Well you know I mean we've been fortunate the last year and a half to two years the the volunteer applications that have come in particularly for subject matter experts you know we're getting a much better response and we're getting not only people from here in North America but we're getting a lot of global participation as well and that's critical. You know we need to understand what the rest of the world is doing as far as you know their met their best practices their codes their standards and it I think it's paying off nicely.

SPEAKER_02: 36:28

Nice nice nice well thank you for coming on the show Mr.

SPEAKER_01: 36:31

Bob thank you Chuck always a pleasure and uh as I say look forward to seeing you and you know hopefully a bunch of the audience here at the winter conference.

SPEAKER_02: 36:43

So audience members if you see Bob walking around make sure you stop him and shake his hand and say hey I saw you on let's talk cabling and then Bob give me after the conference ends tell me how many well maybe I don't want to know that because mine only but that changed the life of one person then right so everyone listening here's the challenge if you want to build a future in this industry you're gonna have to invest in yourself. That means being a constant learner that means getting credentials that means getting certifications I know people out there absolutely rail against certifications and I and I get it because it was a rocky road but the OSP micro certification is just another tool in the tool bag to help sharpen your tools. And if you want to know where this industry is headed get yourself to the Bixie winner conference. Okay the foundation for the future isn't just a theme it is a warning shot across the bow because those people who show up are going to be the ones who move up. Bob again I appreciate you coming on my friend and wire monkeys stay safe stay smart and remember knowledge.