Fabric Innerduct: The Outside Plant Secret Inside Techs Need

The ICT industry has long been divided between outside plant and inside plant technologies, but fabric interduct is bridging that gap with its space-saving mesh design and cost-saving benefits. Tyler Andrews from Maxell explains how this textile-based solution can triple conduit capacity while cutting installation costs in half.

• Provides dedicated pathways for cable within conduit while using significantly less space
• Created in 1997 when an engineer and his wife sewed the first prototype to solve conduit space limitations
• Requires a swivel during installation to prevent twisting – the most crucial installation requirement
• Comes in various configurations including 2-cell and 4-cell options for maximum pathway flexibility
• Reduces total operating costs by approximately 50% compared to rigid HDPE innerduct
• Available in plenum-rated versions for inside plant applications
• Supports up to 12 separate pathways in a single 4-inch conduit
• Installation is easier and faster with lower friction coefficient than traditional innerduct
• Maxell offers Bicsi-accredited training (2 CECs) for proper design and installation techniques

Join me Wednesday nights at 6pm Eastern for live Q&A sessions on all social media platforms where you can ask your installation, certification, design, project management, and estimation questions.

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction and Show Format
• 2:16 Introducing Tyler Andrews from Maxell
• 5:37 What is Fabric Interduct?
• 10:10 Origin Story and Common Myths
• 15:40 Installation Tips and Tools
• 22:13 Pulling Cable Through Maxell
• 30:02 Design Applications and Cost Benefits
• 39:31 Training Resources and Wrap-Up

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Hey Wiremonkeys, welcome to another episode of let's Talk Cabling. Today I'm pondering the thought are outside plant technicians smarter than inside plant technicians?

Speaker 2: 0:12

Welcome to let's Talk Cabling your gateway to the world of ICT Get ready to dive deep into knowledge and power.

Speaker 1: 0:35

Welcome to the show where we tackle the tough questions submitted by installers, technicians, project foremen, project managers, estimators, customers, even IT personnel.

Speaker 1: 0:45

We are connecting at the human level so that we can connect the world. If you're watching the show on YouTube, would you mind hitting the subscribe button and the bell button to be notified when new content is being produced? If you're listening to us on one of the audio podcast platforms, would you mind leaving us a five-star rating? And if we're not a five-star rated show, email me and tell me what I need to do to make this a five-star show. Those simple little steps help us take on the algorithm so we can educate, encourage and enrich the lives of people in the ICT industry. Wednesday nights at 6 pm Eastern Standard Time. What are you doing? You know I do a live stream on TikTok, instagram, facebook, linkedin, youtube and every other social media platform that I can figure out how to get it to where you get to ask your favorite RCDD and you know that's me. Don't even try to tell them. Not your favorite RCDD questions on installation, certification, design, project management, estimation. I even do career path questions, but I can hear you now. But Chuck I'm talking about Chuck on Wednesday nights at 6 pm I don't want to get into an accident. Relax, I record them and you can watch them at your convenience. And finally, while this show is free and will always remain free, if you find value in this content, would you click on that QR code right there? You can buy me a cup of coffee or you can even schedule a 15-minute one-on-one call with me, after hours, of course. So I know the intro was kind of a hook, kind of to kind of prod you a little bit to get you to figure out hey, what's he going to be talking about? But you see, there's a product that the outside plant people have known about for oh, I don't know, it seems like forever, and a lot of inside plant people don't know about it, or if they do, they don't use it but don't realize exactly how this could impact your job, make your job easier, make your job more future-proof. Are those things that you want with your job? I guarantee you you're probably shaking your head. Yes, with me right now. I can see you through the camera. You're agreeing with me. So I'm bringing on a special guest Now.

Speaker 1: 2:48

This show is another one of those shows. See, people seem to think that you know, you just reach out to somebody and later that afternoon you get on and record this recording and then you pump it out. No, this is another one of those shows that's been over 12 months in the making, because it wasn't last year, it wasn't one of the bigs, it just happened. It was a big season before that. I stopped by the Maxell booth and I love Maxell, I used to use it all the time and I said, hey, I need to get you guys on the show.

Speaker 1: 3:19

So again, it's been over a year trying to get these people on the show and it been over a year trying to get these people on the show. And it's not their fault. I'll take the full blame here. Chuck dropped the ball on this one because chuck just got lots of stuff going on and I totally forgot. And then one day it popped up on my screen as reminders like oh yeah, oh yeah. So I reached out to max allen, said look, I need to get you guys back on. Of course they jumped on, jumped in both feet. But here's the cool thing I have officially after we get done with this show I have officially had both Tyler Andrews on the podcast Tyler Andrews from POE of Texas and Tyler Andrews from Maxell Tyler. Welcome to the show. How are you doing, my friend?

Speaker 3: 3:57

I'm doing well. Thank you, chuck. Yeah, it was definitely. It was, I guess, three, four big C's ago, you know, between fall and winter. And by the way, each of those, tyler Andrews of Pee Wee, texas, and I, we now have our photos together because we've now twice accidentally stolen each other's name tags. So we've all been there. So it's going good.

Speaker 1: 4:20

That's cool. That's cool. So let me ask you this so go ahead and give us the 50,000-foot view. Who is Tyler Andrews from Maxell and who is Maxell?

Speaker 3: 4:30

Absolutely yeah. So I am our senior account manager and I cover all of our projects enterprise broadband carrier from the data center to your internet service provider, from Virginia all the way to Maine. And I've been with Maxell for about two years now and during that time I started out in the marketing space doing all of our marketing work and then moved over to our sales side, where I get to work with all the amazing engineers, designers, all the way to our installers out in the field, so I get to wear the office outfit and the field outfit all in the same week. And so, to that end, what the heck is Maxell? It's this stuff, so we'll dive a little bit in. But we are the Fabric mesh interduct that's trying to change the way that we deploy fiber in the field.

Speaker 1: 5:29

Yeah, so, exactly. So for the person who the first time is hearing about Maxell because the large majority of my audience is inside-planet people, so for the first time they're hearing about it, you know, go ahead, let's dive into a little bit. What is Maxell, you know, and how did it actually come to being?

Speaker 3: 5:47

Absolutely yeah. So I'm going to use a little. I like to talk with my hand. So Maxell is specifically designed to create sub-pathways for deploying cable. Now I say cable because it could be fiber optic, could be copper in certain instances still.

Speaker 3: 6:07

But the basic element for Maxell is to take a conduit space say we got a four inch right here and to allow you to deploy multiple cables inside of that conduit space with individual dedicated pathways. Now you might be more familiar with, you know, seeing HDPE rigid to interduct, so you know some of the orange stuff out there. Yep, maxell provides that same capacity, same, you know, fiber cable size, but it starts off, because of its mesh textile format, in a lay flat organization. So to give you the full flexibility of your maximum conduit space while also not taking up that same space itself. So Maxell is designed not just for outside plant but also inside plant. It comes in a plenum riser version, but it has been much more popularized in the outside plant space to get fiber to the building and then we help make sure it gets around the building as well.

Speaker 1: 7:17

And that's one of the things I always like. If you read the TDMM it tells you that you're supposed to put in three inner ducts inside of that four-inch pipe and stuff but that takes up a lot of real estate space inside that conduit and there is no fill ratios for outside plant conduit per se because the NEC is not going to really care about that. But so with the fabric interduct, you know you can put in more fabric and have way more future proving than you do with with, with, like you said, with the with the interduct stuff, than you do with, like you said with, the interduck stuff. You mentioned, I think, during our pre-show call, that Max L was born out of frustration on a job site. Can you walk us through that origin story?

Speaker 3: 7:53

Yeah, a little bit, and it's a little bit. This has been passed down now for 20-some-odd years and it almost has a little bit of a Betsy Ross persona too. You know perfect timing. But the background this is first started by an engineer who was working in the telecom space and the difficulty came from. I think he was working on a project out in where it matters, you know, out West we'll say out West, out west.

Speaker 3: 8:24

And you know the issue was they were in a space where you know they had that limited capacity and you know they had a four inch conduit. It was full with three inch and a quarter rigid inner duct and there was still space in there. There was still space that you know they had ended up putting in. I think some might have been like a. There was existing copper cable in there and there was more space. And he just looked at it and said we could. We could still provide that cable protection without taking up the amount of space this interduct is doing right now.

Speaker 3: 9:01

So he noodled on this and actually pulled his wife into it and the two of them. She actually ended up sewing the first prototype of Maxell, but literally taking just some fabric, laying it over making sure that it had the same density to protect and took that and that was actually where it started back in 1997, 1997. So it's you know, from there it's. It has gone through a couple of iterations, but that was the first one. Engineer out in the field saw something and said, huh, I think we could do it better. And then his wife ended up doing most of the work. So that you know, it's just the way that we work.

Speaker 1: 9:45

Behind every successful story is a wife or a spouse really lifting that person up and telling them to go on. In this case, she actually went above and beyond. It sounded like Absolutely.

Speaker 2: 9:56

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Speaker 1: 10:52

What do you think are some common myths or maybe misconceptions that people may hear about when they hear a fabric interduct?

Speaker 3: 11:01

Absolutely yeah. So I think the the probably the three biggest ones. The first one is how can you know fabric mesh? You know what. What are we really talking about here? Is this? Is this really going to be able to protect the cable and is it going to be even be able to protect itself? And I think a lot of people just think of, you know, just a basic fabric. You know, here we are. We're trying to prevent, you know, burn through, protect the cable. That's the number. One thing is getting people to understand. What we're talking about is a reinforced you know, perforated design that allows for a lightweight fabric but that also allows for a reinforced, you know, pullable, that's not going to tear apart. So the biggest one is textile fabric. Is this really going to be durable, darn straight. I think the next biggest one is is it too flexible? Is this going to be able to provide?

Speaker 3: 12:02

You know, give me structure for my cable inside the conduit space and the way that this is actually designed. It comes with its own backbone. You know, once it's threaded together and once you actually run your cable inside of this, it actually builds upon the existing structure. So, just like if you were to ever try, and you know, let's say, you've got a water hose sitting in the backyard, you got, you have it hanging loose, not much that you can do with it, but when you pull it tight you have a nice, clean, easy pathway. So the tension on this actually gives it its strength. And the third has to do with how it's installed. So a little bit less of the mythological side but more of the oh, I've heard about that Maxell. I think I've had some issues with it, so we can talk a little bit about it. But Maxell, when it's installed properly on the front end, is going to be a game changer for the guys who actually have to pull the fiber through it on the back end.

Speaker 1: 13:01

So let's be honest here, right? I mean, anytime somebody uses a product that's new to them maybe not necessarily new to the industry, but new to them they're going to struggle with it and instead of looking at themselves thinking, am I the problem? Maybe not installing this right? It's got to be the product right, and that happens quite a lot. Most problems I've found are usually because of operator error, not necessarily because of product error. And, don't get me wrong, there can be problems with product, don't get me wrong. But the vast majority of the issue can be you didn't pay attention when they told you how to install the thing right.

Speaker 1: 13:36

Oh yeah, and MaxL, again, it's designed to be put inside a conduit outside plant between two buildings. So you're putting a cable that's already being protected by conduit under the ground. So, really, and outside plant cables got a thicker jacket and polyethylene and it's it's, you know, a lot more rigid and strong than than plenum or rosary, so it's got some good strength properties to it as well. So that's why I really think that the you know, the fabric interduct system that you guys make is fantastic, because you again, you can put, you can put as much of this in there and you can grow that thing out as fast as you want and not even have any kind of any kind of issues.

Speaker 1: 14:13

And, uh, I'm surprised that it hasn't really been adopted for more inside plants stuff. To be quite honest with you, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, let's talk about um tips and tricks for installing Maxell, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, let's talk about tips and tricks for installing Maxell, right, because you kind of already touched base on you know kind of hinted, and I already told you it's probably operator error, because that's usually what it is. What are some key tools or maybe some prep items that a tech is going to need to know before they install Maxell?

Speaker 3: 14:41

Yep, absolutely so. Number one thing when you are working with Maxell, you're going to need a swivel. So if you've been out in the field, if you're pulling fiber, I was going to say, chuck, do you have any any?

Speaker 1: 14:57

I have one somewhere in my office I'm looking for it.

Speaker 3: 15:01

So the running joke is you know you've either got one on the job site or in your tackle box. So the biggest thing, if you are working with Maxell and actually it turns out, if you're working with fiber you should have one of these anyway, right? But the biggest thing is when working with Maxell, you need to have a swivel. And what the swivel does is it actually helps with a very basic physics phenomenon, which is everything we're working with is coming off of a reel. But again, I'm going to go back to my garden hose is coming off of a reel, but again I'm going to go back to my garden hose. When you try and coil up that garden hose, or you try and coil up, it's going to have a memory. It's going to have a memory of that. You know the coil that it actually had. Now, when you actually go to lay that out straight, that hose is actually going to try and twist back to its original form. It's going to have that memory. What happens is when you go to install anything this is for fiber, this is for Maxell that pull string, that mule tape, that, whatever you've got in there is going to have that memory of that spin and over that hundred thousand foot pull. It's going to transfer all of that spin onto whatever you're pulling in. In the case of Maxell, that spin will transition to your while durable but flexible interduct and it's going to create this twisting issue.

Speaker 3: 16:27

So, number one tip Maxell needs to be installed with a swivel, because all of that twisting ends up getting passed along to the front edge of the swivel and the back end comes in flat and straight. That is the single key, biggest thing that we can recommend. Now. There's a whole bunch of other components beyond just using the swivel. You can use override paddles if you're, you know, using an application where you need to throw it on the end of a rodder to navigate through. We have all kinds of different ways of terminating your duct space, but the single biggest one that I got to say is make sure you have a swivel, and if you do have a swivel, make sure it's a breakaway. So, as you're doing your install, it might have a nice tensile strength on the cable. Make sure your swivel is going to be the first thing that breaks away, because your cable is going to cost a little bit more than this thing. Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1: 17:25

So is there a specific rated breakaway head? Do you recommend a 600-pound head, or or, or, what so the answer?

Speaker 3: 17:33

is. So, you know, we offer 600 and 2,500, two very different ends of the spectrum. But the recommendation is what's the length of your pole? It's, you know, it's really going to come down to what's the length of your pole and what size cable you're working with. If you're doing a short run, then you can get away with a 600 pound. You know, 600 pound breakaway. If you're doing a longer run, uh then, and you're using using a larger cable, you go ahead and use that 2500. But it's really going to come down to what's the total distance and what's the tensile strength of the cable. So it's a. That's why I say it's not, you know, not really cut and dry, except if you run the math on those two elements.

Speaker 1: 18:16

So you know outside plant guys like using yellow 77 on their cable. Is there any adverse effect of yellow 77 being used in conjunction with Maxell?

Speaker 3: 18:30

So yellow 77 is actually Maxell is designed to deal with pretty much any chemical. The one thing that you shouldn't use is cooking oils. So we've literally seen it. We have seen let me just grab some cooking oil More so when we've had to do some projects in well, other countries. But you have a bunch of different lubrication options. Don't use something you're going to pull out of your kitchen. That's pretty much our biggest promise here on the Yellow 77. It's not going to be an issue, but your cooking oil can lead to a little bit of breakdown, right right, right when you were saying that.

Speaker 1: 19:15

I remember because, like I said, I pulled outside a plant cave myself and even inside a plant cave in Conduit. I'm not going to say that I ever did this, but I have seen people use soap from the men's room, dawn dish soap. I've never seen cooking oil. That was the first one, because I never usually I mean that person never had cooking oil on their truck.

Speaker 3: 19:37

You never know. Hey, listen, you know when you're on the job site, you got to be ready for pretty much whatever. So this is, uh, we, you know we have to add that disclaimer in there because otherwise somebody's back. Well, we didn't, we didn't touch on this yet.

Speaker 2: 19:48

So you know, make sure you don't have the chef pulling your cable for you.

Speaker 3: 19:51

There, you go there, you go.

Speaker 2: 19:53

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Speaker 1: 20:56

We pulled in the Maxell. It's laying in there now. So now we're getting ready to pull that cable inside that Maxell. Is there any kind of pulling techniques or maybe a learning curve that somebody's used to doing, like HDPE or something like that, that they're going to have to maybe adjust to pull cable through maxell?

Speaker 3: 21:14

so I think, fundamentally, if you are accustomed, so when you know, when working with installers, if you're accustomed to pulling hdpe, you're going to be you're actually going to love switching over to maxell, the because you're actually going to have an easier pull. This is it's a lighter weight product. It is a lower coefficient of friction, not just on the fiber install but on the actual upfront of installing your inner duct. Literally. The only fine tooth piece is making sure that you have a swivel, which is sometimes something you don't have to do with HDPE. But whether you're pulling in, you know one single pack of Maxell, whether you're pulling in, you can do three packs, four packs at a time.

Speaker 3: 22:00

The biggest piece is going to be your front end installation and the way you actually tie off to the front. You know, with Maxell you're actually going to in Fabric Interduct. You'll just cut a slit right above your sewing thread and you can actually tie on from that point. Um, so it should be fundamental, as long as you had a good pair of snips, that's. You know, maybe, maybe that's my other tool in addition to swivel. Always good to have a good, strong set of snips. Uh, you know, but if you're accustomed to pulling hdpe, it's actually going to be easier to switch to pulling max l? Um, you can actually pull four times as fast as actually per per nika. So, uh, the biggest thing will trivia tidbit actually. Yeah, chuck, we'll throw throw the question to you. Okay, if you are going through a, a long line that has a sweeping 90 at the end, you've got 100 feet and then you have a 90 sweep and then another 10 feet. Okay, which end should you start on to pull through?

Speaker 1: 23:08

oh, that's so to make you understand. We got a hundred foot piece of conduit, yep, and within 10 feet of one end is a 90-degree sweeping bend. Okay, yes, I would rather pull, hit that 90-degree bend at last, not first coming through that conduit.

Speaker 3: 23:25

Chuck, it's actually the other way around. Oh yeah, man, you are actually, I know, so you're actually going to have an easier time. You want to start closer. You want to start closer to your actual, your hard turn. So that is so pretty much. You'd have to blow your pulling line. You'd be pulling, you'd pull from the long side, but you want your thing to run into that 90 first.

Speaker 1: 23:49

See, there you go, I learned something new today. I tell everybody learn one new thing every day, and there was my one new thing today, that's a good.

Speaker 3: 23:56

It's a good line to live by.

Speaker 1: 23:57

I like that it is. Yeah, it served me well. Is there? Is there any kind of errors or problems that you tend to see? First time installers get wrong?

Speaker 3: 24:09

Yes, the biggest one. So actually a couple. First one what will happen if you pull in without the swivel? Here's why it's so fundamentally important, Because when you are looking at a conduit, when you're looking at, you know, looking in the end, how many times is that twisted? I have no idea. How many times is that twisted, I have no idea. So you know, one of the biggest issues is you're not going to be able to diagnose. Heck, sometimes it's hard to figure out where did we actually run this cable, when is this conduit going? So to then be able to say what does it look like on the inside? It's a whole nother issue.

Speaker 3: 24:47

So, on the front end, making sure that there is a swivel, If you are the guy who, or the installer who comes in on the back end, which could be hey, we've run our pathway and we're pulling our fiber in, it could be tomorrow, it could be next week, it could be five years from now. I've walked down my own street and seen Maxell that I know was produced at least 10 years ago. So the question what you have to do is not only install it right in the front end, but, if you happen to be an installer before you go to. Just all right, I have to pull in. I got to pull in the fiber.

Speaker 3: 25:23

No matter what, inside of the max cell you have your individual pull tapes. So as you, as you've got these, you know inside each cell you have a free floating mule tape, pull tape. First thing you should do make sure that those tapes can slide. That's the easiest way to see if your cable, if your max cell, has actually been twisted inside your pipe. If you are having issues trying to pull those tapes through now. Also, make sure that you haven't tied off the tape on the other end, because that is something you should do for the install.

Speaker 1: 26:02

So you don't pull the pulse ring back into the thing. Yeah, done that one, Right right.

Speaker 3: 26:05

Don't pull it all the way back through and create a whole new problem. So, yeah, so that's one of the things we highly encourage is install it right in the first place, but then when you actually go to pull it in check and see if you have a nice easy slide because it's going to sound crazy If you do come across Maxell where that float it's not free floating, if your pull tape's not free floating, it's actually going to be easier for you to go ahead and pull it out, pull the Maxell out and install it the right way. And even if it's 500 feet, a thousand feet, the amount of time it will take you to reinstall that is actually going to be one 10th, one, 20th of if you're trying to strong arm that thing through Now. If you've got a new guy who's first week on the job, maybe let him give it a little try first.

Speaker 1: 26:56

Do we put that up there with sending that to the truck to get a bucket of dial tone? Is that where you put that?

Speaker 3: 27:00

Absolutely Yep. Right up there with the dial tone.

Speaker 1: 27:05

What pull strength is the mule tape that you guys put in the Maxell?

Speaker 3: 27:08

So the Maxell, it depends on the size Maxell. If you're going with a three-inch three cell, that's going to have a 1250 breaking strength, so 1,250 pounds. Again, that should not be your breaking issue. If you're working with a smaller max cell, it's going to be about 1,000 pound breaking strength, but we do go up to 1,800 pounds as well. So those pull tapes should not be your weak point when working with Maxill.

Speaker 2: 27:41

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Speaker 1: 28:26

One of the examples you gave earlier was having the memory and stuff. And as you're saying that, you know I'm thinking I was just doing some. When I was visiting my sister last week helping take care of my mom, she had me put in a watering system in her garden, because she knows I do farms and one of the biggest things about poly tubing is exactly right. I mean it's cooled in a circle and then you try to run it down your garden. It does the whole thing. So I told her, I said, lay it out in the yard in the sunlight and just let it sit for a couple hours. It will straighten out, right? Absolutely so. Is that? Is that something that would be? Would that be a tip, maybe for max cell as well, or just no, it can come right off the spool, go straight into the conduit.

Speaker 3: 29:05

So the max cell is not the piece that's going to have that, that issue. So two things from that. You can, if you were to do anything, you could potentially lay your mule tape out in the sun to let flatten out a little bit, right, um, you wouldn't want to do that with maxell, uh, because while maxell is uv resistant, um, over time, um, that the, the uv can cause the fibers within maxell to break down. Uh, not not break, but it will, you know, weaken it. Um, so if you've got a reel of max on on the uh, on the job site, we actually ship it with a layer of black plastic to keep on. So if you've got a reel of Maxell on the job site, we actually ship it with a layer of black plastic to keep on. If you've taken off, you've got a 10,000-foot reel, you use 1,000 feet. Put the sheeting back on or keep it in the shade, don't leave it in the sunlight as a way to flatten it out.

Speaker 1: 30:00

You may not know the answer to this one how much does max cell wave? I've got, I don't know, a hundred feet of a thousand feet. How much is? How much is that going to weigh?

Speaker 3: 30:08

So here's the crazy thing A thousand feet of three inch three cell can go on a composite reel and ship UPS overnight. So it weighs less than a hundred pounds.

Speaker 1: 30:22

Nice. So, yeah, that's a lot less than than than a thousand feet of hdpe.

Speaker 3: 30:28

Just exactly, just exactly. Good luck. Good luck getting an overnight shipment of that right, right.

Speaker 1: 30:33

And then you know how much is the common carry going to cost to to ship that, compared to something you know, upsing something as as well you know a lot of times. You know we do like using rotters and stuff like that to put in pull string stuff. But, um, especially with like uh, newer systems, some outside plant guys like to use jetting systems like blow their string in and stuff. How would they use a jetting system knowing they're gonna be putting max l in? Is there? Is there anything different with that?

Speaker 3: 30:57

so if you want to jet, so you can jet max l in um and you actually can jet the fiber through max l. It's just not as efficient, um. But if you are jetting the max l into place in the same way that you would throw, you know, plastic bag or whatever is your driving force through for your blowing pace, you would follow a normal install method with that and Maxell should be able to go that same distance we are. You know that has been brought up. You know, hey, is there a way to do a better? You know, blown fiber through Maxell, biggest issue just being, you know, if you've ever been in a restaurant trying to, you know, blown fiber through Maxell, biggest issue just being, you know, if you've ever been in a restaurant trying to, you know, blow a straw at somebody and it's got a whole bunch of holes in it. So we're working on that. We're working on that as well, to make that a little bit better too.

Speaker 1: 31:52

Oh, so that might be some future improvement coming down the pike.

Speaker 3: 31:55

Potentially coming down the pathway Gotcha.

Speaker 1: 31:57

Now let me ask you this question. Let's say that I wanted to go to my local Graybar and I don't have an established relationship with Graybar. I'm just Joe Blow walking in off the street getting stock manufacturer suggested retail pricing. How much is max out things?

Speaker 3: 32:13

usually you're going to be looking at five bucks. Five bucks a foot If you're going off a three three. Now again, it's going to be based on a whole number of components. Your total real size cuts where it's going, but roughly around a little less than five.

Speaker 1: 32:33

So yeah, okay, yeah. So now that we now we talk about installation tips and techniques, you know the problem is, unless you've got a company that's forward thinking, a company that's always looking for a way to maximize, you know, proficiency in installation, most companies aren't going to deal with something unless it's specced into the design, right, sure. So let's have a conversation towards, like, maybe the project managers and maybe the designers, estimators For those who are creating bid packages or submittals. How do you suggest positioning Maxell in their specs?

Speaker 3: 33:07

Yep, so Maxell is always going to be in. Well, it's either going to be in Section 26 or Section 27, depending on how your project is put together. But usually if you are seeing conduit, if conduit is getting put in and fiber is getting put in, likely you have an opportunity for Maxell to be in there as well, especially if you're working with metal any of your metal conduit raceway a lot of opportunity for Maxell. So again, that conduit, especially our four-inch PVC, can sometimes be used in other utilities as well. But if fiber is going alongside, maxell is going to have a piece to play. Now Maxell it could be.

Speaker 3: 33:57

We've also, you know, we have smaller versions of Maxell that are designed to fit inside even two inch and inch and a half existing HDPE duct. So you know it's not just limited to four inch conduit. We've actually done this, especially in rural and residential applications where you can run smaller formats. So what we're? If you've got fiber on the project, if you have conduit positions in a similar part of that project, maxell has a fit. Yeah, I did not know that.

Speaker 1: 34:33

And you see, I always used Maxell with 4-inch conduit and for those kind of installs. I never knew that they can go to stuff that small. It's funny because when you're saying that I've got HDPE sitting up by the new podcast studio, that I gotta run a fiber cable from the new podcast studio down here to the house to get my connectivity.

Speaker 3: 34:49

You know it'd be really nice to have some max selling that I'm just, I'm just saying yeah just putting that up there well, I think here's here's, here's where, here's where it gets really fun working with maxell is, again I say max l comes in a couple of different sizes. One first, to call out max l. We call three inch max l, three inch because it's designed to fit in a three inch conduit. Here's where that, frankly, is a little bit backwards. People think it's only designed for three inch conduit. No, you can fit three three-cells to get nine pathways in a four-inch conduit, right.

Speaker 3: 35:27

But Maxell can come in larger sizes and smaller sizes, but also in different configurations. We go up to four cells or as small as two cells. The reason we say that in that four-inch conduit you could actually fit three, two-inch, four cells in a four-inch pathway. Now you've got 12 pathways In a four-inch conduit, you have 12 pathways. So we create sort of this whole new mathematical metric. I drive our head of engineering crazy because I'm like yeah, but standardize this for me. Everybody's asking me what do I need, what can I fit? And he's like what? But standardize this for me, you know, everybody's asking me what do I need, what can I fit? And he's like what size is your cable? How many cables are you trying to do?

Speaker 1: 36:07

Like I get that because I'm a former estimator, right, if somebody asked me, you know, you know what's the average cost per run. I'm going to ask them what's the ceiling look like? What kind of cable is it do? But let me ask you this Do you guys have any kind of design tools or maybe tables, where a project manager or an estimator is not fluent in max LEs can say oh look, I got four-inch pipe and I can use this product and get X amount of cells out of it.

Speaker 3: 36:37

We do. We do so. We have one on our site that can give you that basic fill ratio calculator based on this number of cables, this number, this size. And then this is the Maxell that I want to use, because that's the other benefit. Maxell does take up a little bit of space, but it takes up a heck of a lot less space than you're getting lost out of Rigid. So we have a calculator that helps with that. We have one that, on our website, is a very basic version of that. We have one that can give you every, every single calculation based on your bends, based on your, you know, this is, this is the product that I want to use, and we can give you the best configuration and even mix and match max L sizes.

Speaker 1: 37:21

So yeah, Make sure you send me those links after the interview and I'll make sure I'll put that in the show notes, because I can hear the estimator screaming at me now Chuck, where can I find that?

Speaker 2: 37:31

Where can I find it? I can hear him. I can hear him screaming at me already. Let's take a short break. Are you trying to reach the technicians, project managers and decision makers of the ICT industry? Then the technicians, project managers and decision makers of the ICT industry. Then why aren't you advertising on let's Talk Cabling? With over 150,000 impressions a month across podcasts, youtube and social media, this isn't just a show. It's the go-to resource for the low-voltage industry. We spotlight the tools, training and technology shaping the future of structured cabling, and your brand could be front and center. Don't just get noticed, get trusted. Email, chuck at advertising at letstalkcablingcom and let's connect your brand to the right audience today.

Speaker 1: 38:22

One thing that manufacturers love to do and because you know my day job I work for manufacturers. I've seen this happen where I work. I've seen it happen other places too they always build these case studies right. Well, look, if you use this product, you're going to save X amount of material, x amount of labor cost when you use it towards.

Speaker 3: 38:39

Instead of doing it like that way, you guys had to have done some kind of a case study on how much max l saves in material and labor compared to doing hdpe yes, yep, now the, the, the study's a little bit old, uh, but if you're looking at, you know, comparing apples to apples and again, very, it's, it's based on a four inch conduit space three, you know, we comparing apples to apples and again, very, it's, it's based on a four inch conduit space three, you know, we're looking at that. What you can do is you could actually cut your costs in half by switching over to Maxell. Cut your costs in half, but also triple your total capacity for for fiber in that space.

Speaker 1: 39:23

When you say cut in half, do you mean cut the material cost in half, cut the labor cost in half, or cut both of them in half?

Speaker 3: 39:29

cut both of them in half wow, holy smokes yeah, so you can lower.

Speaker 3: 39:34

Uh, what we're, what we're looking to do is lower your total operating cost, and the biggest issue has really come in that you're not really getting a single. Interduct comes in a single line tube and Maxell comes in a multi-cell pack. So what we've tried to do is put it as an apples to apples, and that's how we've lowered the total cost of materials and lowered the total cost on the contractor side for the install, while also increasing capacity. So the final math is it's cut your total operating cost in half, but it has increased your capacity 3x from what you would normally be working with.

Speaker 1: 40:19

And that's going to ring some bells for those people who love the future proof or like to put in extra stuff, because they know, you know, while underground is the most expensive way to do cabling between two buildings, initially, over the lifespan, it's actually the cheapest because all you can do is attach to the mule tape or the pool line and just zip it in.

Speaker 3: 40:39

Well, and that's one of the biggest things that we're trying to drive home with Maxell is, if you were working in a conduit space, you're already accepting the most expensive part. It's the trenching, it's the installing of the conduit. So what would you do if you could use 66% less conduit? Because you can 3x your usage of a single four-inch space With Maxell. You might have planned for I need three cables now, Okay, but have you left in one for maintenance? Have you left in one for future growth? Yes, you've planned for today, but what have you planned for tomorrow? Because you know there's going to come that project. Help yourself out for the future.

Speaker 1: 41:27

So you mentioned the plenum rated Maxell. At some point are you going to do a case study for using plenum rated Maxell versus Interduct? Because you know I tell people all the time number one, interduct is not required by the standards. It's a facto standard. There's nothing in the standards that says you have to use Interduct right. But and a lot of people automatically assume that Interduct is for protection I'm talking about corrugated Interduct right now, not MaxSight. Sure, corrugated Interduct, while it does provide some minimal and I emphasize that word, minimal protection, because if you ever stepped on a piece of interduct installing, you know it doesn't provide a whole bunch of protection. The two real reasons for interduct is it's a visual warning for other trades look, stay away from my cable. If you break it I'm gonna charge you a million dollars to come fix it and it's a pathway for future fiber. So you, you're obviously knocking the, the pathway for future fibers, out of the ballpark, right? Let me ask you this. So my ADHD kicking right there, right? Squirrel, squirrel.

Speaker 1: 42:28

So my question is at some point to try to attract maybe more inside plant people to use Maxell instead of Interduct? Is there on the radar maybe a case study you might be working on or might be thinking about working on, to help those people who do the inside plant to realize look, you could save, I'll just use the outside plant. You can save half the labors and triple your capacity.

Speaker 3: 42:51

Yes, we are actively working on that, because your total material costs switching from traditional plenum to plenum riser rated maxill is actually even more of a cost savings than what you have in the outside plant space. So yes, that's actively, actively in the works.

Speaker 1: 43:10

So yeah, great minds think alike man look at you, chuck appreciate that. It's almost like I've had the headache of having to design an estimate cable before and had to and and had to justify my actions to a customer.

Speaker 3: 43:25

Yeah, it's almost like you've had experience in this space. Try to put out fires before they've started.

Speaker 1: 43:32

Exactly right. So let me ask you this Again. Let's say a brand new project manager, brand new estimator listening to this show. They never heard of Maxell before and they're like man, I could save half the cost and get triple the. I want to start using it, but I ain't never designed Maxell before. Do you guys offer any kind of engineering guidance or is there any kind of you know benefits you? You hope those help those kinds of people design Maxell for their projects.

Speaker 3: 43:56

Absolutely. So I'm going to throw out two nuggets One. So my job is to not only help you design with it, I'm also there to help you install it on the backend. So consider me your official guy who not only helps you with the order, but make sure it goes in on the front end at the pipe. The other we actually do offer a Bixi accredited training worth two CECs. So that's the other side that I like to run around, like to talk to people, but I get to also give some other benefit in return.

Speaker 1: 44:33

Now that Bixie CEC class, is it a face-to-face class? Is it a virtual class? Is it an online, computer-based class? What?

Speaker 3: 44:41

All three as an option. So we do it as lunch and learns, we do it as a hybrid and we do it as virtual. So we've got pretty much sort of a. We're going to be launching a monthly, regularly scheduled one, starting in August, so you can just book it on your calendar and come in with a bunch of other RCDDs. But if you have a team that you want to knock it out, you reach out to myself, we get it scheduled, we bring it to you so nice.

Speaker 1: 45:08

Let me know the next time you do one of those ones and I'd love to hop on and earn me a couple cecs towards my rcdd. I got you, I got you, as it's funny, as a credentialed professional, you're always looking. It's. When I hear training, first question always is is it recognized? Training? First question always is is it recognized for CECs? How many CECs is it recognized for?

Speaker 3: 45:26

Oh yeah, oh yeah. It's so interesting that those CECs, those are valuable, those are super valuable. Absolutely, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 45:34

So, Tyler, if somebody wants to find out more about Maxell or they want to get in touch with you, how do they do that? Or they want to get in touch with you how do they do that?

Speaker 3: 45:42

Best way is to either go to maxellus M-A-X-C-E-L-Lus or hit me up on LinkedIn. I'm very active on LinkedIn and ready to talk to anybody about cabling, so yes, I appreciate you coming on the show and dropping some nuggets of knowledge for us.

Speaker 1: 46:01

And this is the thing and now I can officially say I've had both Tyler Andrews on the show and dropping some nuggets of knowledge for us and this, this thing.

Speaker 3: 46:07

And now I can officially say I've had both tyler andrews on the podcast.

Speaker 1: 46:09

I love it, I love it we'll get a group photo with the next bixie. Yes, yes, that's what we need to do. We, all three of us, I think he's, I think he's going to be at uh, at uh bixie and beyond, I think okay, okay, um, I'll see if I can sneak over to that one. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and and there's a a very good chance, a 99.44, 100% chance I'll be there as well too, I can't definitely say that yet, cause I haven't actually put in for the vacation time yet.

Speaker 3: 46:35

So there you go.

Speaker 1: 46:36

Well, I appreciate you coming on the show, Tyler.

Speaker 3: 46:39

Thank you, Jack. Stay tuned for more episodes filled with innovation. Keep connecting.

Speaker 2: 47:04

Keep achieving Until next time.