AHL Questions about Importance of Estimation

Estimating in the low-voltage world isn't just for project managers – it's a vital skill that impacts everyone from first-year apprentices to seasoned field technicians. This episode dives deep into how understanding the estimating process can transform your approach to cabling installations and boost your career trajectory.

Ever wondered why that extra HVAC duct in the ceiling pathway matters so much? When you're pulling 250 cables and each one needs to go up and over obstacles, those extra feet add up to half a box of cable – real money that affects your project's profitability. For apprentices, these early lessons in material management create a foundation for career advancement.

Veteran installers share how proper estimating prevents the dreaded "change order death spiral" that plagues so many projects. Learn practical strategies for tracking labor hours, submitting effective RFIs, and maintaining detailed scopes of work that protect both you and your company. As one listener asked: "How does estimating keep me from getting change-ordered to death?" The answer lies in proactive documentation and clear communication.

For project managers and business owners, we break down the critical reports you need from day one, comparing the benefits of traditional spreadsheets versus specialized estimating software. The surprising winner? It depends on your company size and specific needs – but understanding both approaches gives you a competitive edge.

Perhaps most valuable is our discussion on cross-training between field technicians and estimators. When installers participate in the estimating process, they develop buy-in while providing practical insights that office-bound estimators might miss. This symbiotic relationship creates more accurate bids and stronger project execution.

Whether you're considering starting your own low-voltage business or looking to advance within your current company, mastering these estimating fundamentals positions you for greater success. Subscribe now and learn how to transform your approach to project planning and execution!

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome to Let's Talk Cabling
• 3:25 Apprentice Estimating Skills
• 7:13 Avoiding Change Order Nightmares
• 11:48 Tracking Field Tech Metrics
• 19:10 Project Management Labor Reports
• 21:18 Spreadsheets vs. Estimating Software
• 23:20 Budgeting for Estimation Training
• 27:16 Cross-Training Benefits and Wrap-Up

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Welcome to let's Talk Cabling, the award-winning podcast where knowledge is power and the low-voltage industry connects. Hosted by Chuck Bowser, rcdd. We're here to empower installers, designers and industry pros with the tips, stories and best practices you need to stay ahead. From copper to fiber, standards to innovation, this is the show that keeps you plugged into success. So grab your tools, turn up the volume and let's talk cabling.

Speaker 2: 0:36

Wednesday night, 6 pm Eastern Standard Time. That can only mean one thing Live after hours with your favorite RCDD. You know that's me. Don't be shamed. Go ahead and say it, chuck. Say it right now. I challenge you to say it in the message box right now. Chuck is my favorite RCDD. Go ahead and say it. Go ahead and say it, I'll wait. Man, it's taking an awful long time to type. Chuck is my favorite RCD. Say it in the chat box loud and proud. Yes, all right.

Speaker 2: 1:10

First off, I got to give you a bit of a warning. We're having a bit of a thunderstorm in the area. A bit of a thunderstorm, and if you know me, you know I live in the country and you know what that means. Our power has already flickered once. If it flickers during the live stream, I'm just going to cut it there because I've got the study group tonight. So if it clicks out, it clicks out, but I hope it doesn't. I hope it doesn't, so let's just assume that it isn't. It won't happen, all right.

Speaker 2: 1:46

So let's talk about what are you drinking. What are you drinking? Zevia soda here. Put it in chat box below. What are you drinking? Cold Zevia water? Love it, one of my favorite things to drink. One of my favorite things to drink.

Speaker 2: 2:01

Oh, you know what? I forgot to do an acronym challenge. So let's pull a random acronym from the Big C ICT field practice guides because I forgot to pick one out ahead of the show. I've got a lot on my plate, guys, a lot on my plate. I'll explain that in a minute. So let's pick up one, let's. I've done that one already, trying to do one I haven't done in a while. Because I do so many acronym challenges, I get them all kind of confused. I do, I do. Let's do this one, let's do. Gosh, I've done all of these lately, holy cow, let's just pick one and run with it. Tgb, tgb, tgb what does that mean? Tell me in the chat. I know it's an old acronym, so don't bust my chops. Tgb Go ahead and tell me Got that from the Bixie ICT Practices field guides. Tgb Somebody. Tell me in the chat box what does that mean? I got to open up the chat box so I can see it. It's not letting me see them. Do-do-do-do, do-do-do-do People chat, alrighty. Okay, there you go, alrighty. So TGB stands for Telecommunications Grounding Bus Bar. It is the old acronym. Old acronym for the SBBs Secondary Bonding Bus Bar. So there you go. There's your acronym challenge. Done my drink?

Speaker 2: 3:28

Hey, did you catch Monday's episode? It's a part one of a two part series, so you want to start your own low voltage business. I have three panel experts that came on and we're going to watch the other half. The other half will broadcast next Monday and I got a bunch of cool stuff in the pipeline that's going to be produced here real quickly. So I got a show about how to design and install a video surveillance system. I got a show coming on talking about from Polywater, they got a new product coming out where, if you have a damaged outside plant cable, the stuff that you can put on it. I got Maxell coming on. I've got Trevor Klein coming on. We're going to do uh tips on being a good trainer. I got lots and lots of good stuff in the in the pipeline that's just going to be um coming out.

Speaker 2: 4:21

So make sure, make sure that you stay tuned to these episodes and before I get too much further along, I need your help. I need your help. Okay, I don't ask for help very often, I don't, but here you go, here it comes right. I want to do a show on artificial intelligence, ai, and how it can affect you and your career. I want to do a 30-minute Q&A show about it. So if you have any questions about how Q&A can help you and your career, send it to me so I can collect them and put them in a Q&A show in the future and then get that broadcasted. Okay, all right, let's get rocking and rolling.

Speaker 2: 5:01

Question number one it says hey, chuck by the way, this comes from Jada on TikTok hey, chuck, I'm an apprentice and everything feels new. Why should I learn estimating before I even pull cable? Okay, I don't really think you need to. I think if you put some effort into it it will certainly help you, but I don't think you need to. But here's the things that it's going to help you if you do right. Number one it's going to show you how every box of cable matters, how footage matters. Cable runs matter, right? Less waste on a job site means more the better chance that project won't go in the red, and I talked about this in class today.

Speaker 2: 5:46

I talked about you know how, when you run a cable, try to pick a hallway that doesn't have a bunch of stuff in it. If you pick a hallway that's got HVAC duct work. Every time you come to a duct you've got to go up and over that duct, even if that duct is only one foot. That's one foot up and one foot down. That's two feet times the number of cables. If you have 250 cables going down that hallway, that's a half of a box of cable. So those kinds of things. It will help you with being apprentice, right. And it's also going to sharpen your abilities to read blueprints and know what they mean. And what does AFF mean? And what does a solid triangle mean? What does a half-filled triangle mean? And by doing this, you know a lot of people say well, chuck, he's an apprentice. I get it, but you know what I wish? When I was an apprentice, when I was 18 years old, I really wished that I had the long-range vision to think about the jobs I wanted to have before finishing becoming an apprentice. So it really, really is going to help you a lot. It truly will.

Speaker 2: 6:54

Don't be afraid to ask questions. Always ask the estimator, always ask the project manager, because they're always going to help. Just the key is keep an open mind. That's it. Question number two this comes from Marco from Facebook.

Speaker 2: 7:10

He says I've been an installer for two years. How does estimating keep me from getting change ordered to death? Okay, a good estimate, a detailed estimate, is only as good as the information that is given to the estimator. The estimator has to be giving great information in order to have a complete estimate. An estimate, by its very nature, is a guess A guess, and if you're making a guess on half the information, you're going to get change orders. So a good estimator is going to ask questions. They might send out requests for information, stuff like that, to get all that information. But here's the thing. Here's the thing you really want to do. Being an installer for two years now you're probably still working in the field.

Speaker 2: 7:56

The key is number one learn how to spot the plans. Make sure that you learn how to, first off, learn what is an RFI, what is a request for information? How do you submit that? Who's the person who's going to be sending that to the customer? Right? Because I doubt it's going to be you, with two years experience. You might have to go to the project manager, who might have to go to the estimator, who might have to send that RFI to the customer. But you know what the estimator and project manager are going to be more pleasant if you ask a detailed RFI, that's clearly thought out, because that means that's less work that they got to do, right. So that's one.

Speaker 2: 8:38

Another thing is make sure that you have clear material counts, make sure you have a detailed scope of work. Make sure you understand the scope of work. You should know the scope of work. So if they ask you to run even one extra cable, even one extra cable, you're going to know what that means, right. You're going to know what that means right and don't you know. Again, if you get they get asked to run the cable, don't run the cable until you get that signed change order in advance.

Speaker 2: 9:03

Right, and at some point, especially two years, you really need to start thinking about forecasting labor hours, right. Start thinking about it now. Start paying attention. How long it takes you to pull cables in an open ceiling? How long does it take you to drop cables down a wall? How long does it take you to terminate faceplates a simplex faceplate, a duplex, a triplex, a quad? Does it take you longer to terminate faceplates in modular furniture? How long does it take you to dress a cable closet? How long does it take you to terminate a badge mount. How long does it take you to terminate a patch mount? How long does it take to test the cable plant?

Speaker 2: 9:39

Start paying attention to that kind of stuff and then that way when you do the project, you can ask the estimator for those values, so you can kind of keep an eye on and say, okay, yes, we're doing this right, we're doing this under budget, we're ahead of schedule. So it's going to help you for better forecasting those hours, especially when the general contractor asks for freebies. Yeah, you know that always happens, right? Hey, can you put us a drop in our trailer? Is that in the scope of work? No, okay, then I can't do it without a signed change order. Oh, come on, I'll scratch your baggage, scratch mine, okay. Well, the problem with that is that's going to cause you all kinds of problems, right? So it just there we go. I got to come on, there we go. I was trying to get my chat box to come on.

Speaker 2: 10:30

So Shotzi's drinking a Diet Dr Pepper as usual, showing as usual. Showing that on the c stream, zd is in the house. Hello, zd. Uh, yes, you got it correct. Free. It was telecom grounding, bus bar shots. He got that as well, too. And look at daryl in. Yes, there we go. I I told you, I told y'all to put in the chat box who is your favorite rcdd. And look at this daryl perez. Yes, my favorite rcddD. Yes, there we go. There you go.

Speaker 2: 10:59

All right, let's go back to the questions. Okay, again, just the four warm people who might have come on late. There's thunderstorms in the area. We've already had a power flash once. I hope not to lose power, but I do live in the country. If I lose power. That's it for the live stream. It's just done. So there you go. So no.

Speaker 2: 11:16

Next question, number three, and this is a great question. This is to be direct message on instagram chaotic data is in the house. What's happening? Chaotic and he wants to know um, it's riley, that could be a guy's name or a girl's name. Um, what's the number one metric? A field tech should track, trying to improve future estimates. The fact that you're asking that question tells me you're going to go far in this industry.

Speaker 2: 11:44

The biggest thing that you want to keep an eye on is what are your actual labor hours and what's your bid hours? Ed, the old tech guy's in the house. What's happening, mr Ed? What are the bid hours to do each of those tasks, what are your actual hours? And because you'll start noticing and don't assume just because the estimating hours are different from what your actual hours are Right, because you know the estimator has to make a lot of assumptions and when you get on a job site, especially new construction job sites, they change daily, weekly. So by the time you've won the project to the time you actually get to the job site, lots of stuff might have changed. So if you start seeing, for example, it's taking you longer to pull cable, you need hunters in the house, you need to ask yourself okay, why is the estimator hours saying this, why are my hours different? Why are they more? And then maybe have a conversation with the estimator hours saying this why are my hours different, why are they more? And then maybe have a conversation with the estimator and say look, my hours are higher than what you bid in the estimate. How did you come up with those hours? Not in an accusatory tone, but in an exploratory tone, because it might be you, it might be the estimator, but he may have said okay, I've estimated to run down these hallways. You may be running down another set of hallways that has a whole bunch of stuff in it which is slowing you down because you're over and under, there's other trades in front of you that may not have been estimated in the bid, but the fact that you're watching that and you have that conversation with the project. It's better to be proactive than reactive on projects. It truly, truly is. So make sure you bring those details to your estimator and to your project manager, because they're going to know that as well too.

Speaker 2: 13:26

Graba says in the chat box if you're working for a contractor and you're going into debt because the market that you're working in it's difficult to work because of the train you should always stay for experience. Yes, experience or leave. Oh, there's a question on the tail end. Let's do it again. If you're working for a contractor and you're going into debt because of the market that you're working in it's difficult to work because of the train Would you stay for experience or leave? Hmm, so that's a great question, grabba.

Speaker 2: 14:01

My thoughts are I don't want to go in debt unless I can avoid it at all costs. I live to try to get out of debt period. But there is some value to experience. So you've got to think okay, what kind of experience am I going to get? Is that experience going to help me make more money later? So if it's just experience for experience sake, like pulling cable, maybe not. But if you know that at the end of this job you're going to be doing terminating fiber and testing fiber, and that's something you don't know well, those kinds of skills will help you make more money later. So maybe. And how much debt are we talking about? Is it a little bit of debt or is it a lot of debt? Right Again, me and Ed, we are the no-debt club.

Speaker 2: 14:54

I do everything I can to get out of debt. I don't want a car. That's why I drive an old truck. You know I can have a nice brand spanking new, hundred thousand dollar pickup truck, yeah. But then the problem is harley, my dog sleeping on the floor right behind me, would scratch it with her paws and then I'd be really ticked off because she scratched a hundred thousand dollar truck. If she scratches my fifteen thousand dollar farm truck, if she scratches my $15,000 farm truck, I'm not happy, but I can live with that, right? Daryl Lynn says all righty, oh, this is a great question too. Hey, chuck, any chance you can do an episode on estimating the average cost of cabling in Florida's current market per run. I'm going to take a screen snapshot of that and I'm going to put some thought into that one. Here's the problem If I do it just for Florida, then I'm only servicing a small part of my audience. Maybe it would be how to average your cost for your area so that way people can take it and extrapolate it to their area. There you go, all right.

Speaker 2: 15:57

Next question Flip back over to my chat box, question number four. This comes from Sonia on Reddit and Sonia wants to know. Fiber splicing feels like wizardry. It can. It can feel that way. Absolutely, it feels like wizardry. Can estimating really help me justify my day rate? So I'm assuming, by you asking that question, that you mean that you probably have your own little business, your own LLC, right? Yes, it absolutely can. Right, because? Number one, you need to know exactly how many hours it takes to pull, terminate, splice test and do project documentation. Alternate, splice test and do project documentation. And not only. You need to also take your actual hours and do and base all your estimating on historical data so that way when the customer wants to give you a price, well then you can base it on historical data. And that way, one of the biggest things that happens to people starting off their own and Pierce from All Green Light said this in last Monday's episode charge more than you realize for. Charge more. Don't undervalue yourself. Okay, it's customers, don't really. If you explain to the customer all the steps you've got to go through, all the things you've got to do, you can justify most of the stuff that you're doing most of the stuff.

Speaker 2: 17:21

Question number five I'm stepping into a junior project management role. What estimating reports should I ask for on day one? So every company has different names for different reports. They just do that's a matter of fact. I remember one company it was called WIP reports, work in progress reports, they call it different things. First, you want to look at the two biggest things. You want to look at your labor budgets and your material budgets, right? So for the material budgets, hopefully they're tracking what materials are in the project, what materials have been ordered and what have lead times, so that way you can avoid potential surprises and that way you can also track what materials come in. And then you can also track when it gets installed, because if you're doing progressive payments, progress payments, a lot of this can be based on what you're actually installing.

Speaker 2: 18:17

The second report that you really should be asking for is some type of a labor report right, the planned versus earned hours, the actual versus planned hours, and see, okay, am I getting this project done on time? If it says you've got 80 hours in the project to pull the cable, which is two men, 40 hours, and you're already at 50 hours, you're over budget. If you're at 20 hours and you only have 10% of the work done, you're going to be over hours. If you have 20 hours of the allotment and you have 60, 70% of the cable pool, you're ahead of hours. So it kind of helps you think about you know, where am I in this project? Because running a project is like driving a car. Okay, answer me this question in the chat box, everybody. Because running a project is like driving a car. Okay, answer me this question in the chat box, everybody. Would you drive your car down a very busy highway by looking in the rearview mirror the whole entire time just to see what's behind you? If the answer is no, then you probably make a good project manager because you want to see the stuff coming ahead of you. You don't want to be reactive, you want to be say it with me proactive, proactive, right. So, yes, there you go. So ask for those reports. There are other reports too that are going to be specific to different companies, but the material budget and the labor budgets, those are the big ones. Those are the big ones you want to watch out for.

Speaker 2: 19:50

Question number six. This comes from Dana on YouTube. It says where does estimating software beat old spreadsheet software? Sorry, read that again. Where does software estimating beat old spreadsheet for small contractors? Read that again. Where does software estimating beat old spreadsheet for small contractors? Oh man, you know, the installation field has the Velcro versus tie wraps debate, the pass-through versus traditional debate. In the estimators we have the spreadsheet versus estimating software debate. It's the same thing to us, right? There's advantage and disadvantage. In fact, I think I've done a show on that. It was a couple years ago, but I think I've done a show on that. Maybe it's time to revisit it again. Another great topic right there.

Speaker 2: 20:37

So here's the advantage for spreadsheets, right, spreadsheets, they're cheap, they come on computers, they're already there. Right, they're easy to create formulas and build what-ifs and tables and pivot tables and all that stuff. They're really not that hard. You can take a couple classes from your local community college and be fluent in spreadsheets pretty quickly. The disadvantage of spreadsheets is if you overwrite a formula or you can make a mistake somewhere inside of a formula, somewhere that can impact something somewhere else that you don't catch and could cause your project to go in the red. That's the bad thing, unless you protect the cells. But even if you protect the cells you can still run into some issues right. So they're cheap and they're easy to work with. The bad thing about spreadsheets are they're not tied into your distribution. So you're not going to get automatic up-to-date pricing See spread software, S-Mink software from companies that produce you know electrical S-Mink software, low voltage S-Mink software.

Speaker 2: 21:43

They're usually tied into a server somewhere. So when you put in a part number for you know ABC-1234, it's going to pull the current pricing for that. That's the advantage of that type of software. And the learning curve for estimating software is usually a way bigger curve than it is for spreadsheets. Okay, because you know that's a bad thing. But the good thing is with spreadsheets you know if it's a small company you probably don't have this. But larger companies, you might have somebody working on your estimate in one office and the project manager being in a different office. So now you've got to somehow share that spreadsheet amongst the two people in two different offices, who may have different access credentials. They might not have access to the drive on the server in somebody else's thing, and they also, ed pointed out, spreadsheets also have limited table capacity, and that's where SQL is superior. Yes, 100%, but this guy said he was a small contractor, so I don't really think he's going to get to that point. A bigger contractor, that would definitely be a thing for that. Now, the good thing about estimating software is it's usually cloud-based, right, so anybody can access it, whether they're in the office in Tampa or the office in Baltimore or the office in Chicagoland. Chicagoland, hey, ed might be coming to Chicago again teaching classes again. So there you go.

Speaker 2: 23:12

Question number seven. Question number seven how do I convince management to budget for estimation training? Okay, number one, show me, show me where you can find estimating training. Okay, show me where you can find estimating training. Okay, show me where you can find estimating training. Hey, chuck, it's been a while, but I'm catching up with the podcast. Yes, glad to have you back, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 23:37

So here's the thing there's not a lot of good estimating classes out there. Okay, there's just not. I was working on one, but I kind of shifted directions. I'm still going to finish it, but I don't even have one. I mean, I could do one, but I just don't have it yet. So good luck in finding training on estimating software, right, but here's what you do. I approach it the same way I approach to customers, right. Explain to the customer in this case, the customer is going to be your boss. Explain to the customer how their decision is going to cost them more money. Okay, so show them what is the risk. What is the financial risk for underbidding? What is the financial risk for burnout?

Speaker 2: 24:24

A good estimator you can only juggle three to five estimates at a time. After that, you start getting into a gray area where you're going to miss stuff. I won't say who the company is, but I worked for a company once it wasn't me, I was a technician in the field at the time. The estimator estimated a multi-story building and forgot to put in the backbone. The estimator estimated a multi-story building, multi-story building and forgot to put in the backbone because he was under a lot of stress. How much did it cost to do the backbone that wasn't in the bid, as opposed to getting some training to make sure this stuff doesn't get missed, right? You're probably thinking the bid as opposed to getting some training to make sure this stuff doesn't get missed, right? You're probably thinking the same thing as me. Also, point out hey look, if you get training, you can be able to be faster at your estimates. That means you might be able to get more turnaround, more bids coming through, and I would also you didn't ask, ask this, but here's my opinion. I would also emphasize two words for you cross training.

Speaker 2: 25:36

Cross training that doesn't mean you know cross training. Like, like you, like you see in the athletic world bring in the technician. Have the technician do the rake-offs, have them do the counts yes, still double check it. Have the technician come up with the routes. Have the. Have the technician come up with the hours. Right, especially the technician that you think you're going to give that job to, because now your technician's got buy-in. They're like oh man, I said this job is going to be done in in, in 80 hours. We need to step up right and you're cross-training them because don't be afraid to train people, because you know this industry has always been horrible at that, which is why I launched the podcast. We've always been bad about training our people. The better trained your people are, the better performance your company is going to have. Period, right. And when you start cross-training, you never know.

Speaker 2: 26:23

The technician might say well, here's a flaw. You're doing, you're estimating to do this way, but we can't do, because that it may not have been something you you didn't know. See, a lot of estimators. Unfortunately, a lot of estimators don't have actual cable pulling experience. I said it. I said it. A lot of estimators sometimes feel like they don't have to go up in the ceiling to look at the pathways. I said it out out loud. I didn't say me, I said a lot. A lot of them right? So that's a good thing about having a technician, having the project foreman technician. They get buy-in and you're going to get better quality estimates.

Speaker 2: 27:00

You're not just cross-training Listen to this. You're not just cross-training the technician, you're also cross-training the technician, you're also cross-training the estimator. Oh, there you go. Uh-huh, that's exactly what I'm talking about. Right, all right. So this is from JasonMask13.

Speaker 2: 27:17

What is more important to installers? Bod, b-o-d spec drawings, I hear. Basis of design is ignored. I am in the architectural world. Well, here's the thing. Let me put that up so everybody can see that question there.

Speaker 2: 27:33

Jason, most installers don't have access to the basis of design, right? They have access, typically, to the drawings, access to the specs maybe drawings more so than the specs. So for me it'd be the drawings. In a perfect world it'd be all three. I'll just be honest, in a perfect world it'd be all three. But here's the thing If you take the technician out of the field, remember the technician is producing revenue by pulling cable, terminating cable, testing cable. They're not producing revenue. Must testing cable? They're not producing revenue. It must be 630. They're not producing revenue by working in the office or reading stuff. So keep that in mind. It's always a balance. What is that balance? I would say 80%, 85% field, 10%, 15% office. I think that's about a good number there. If you can afford it, maybe more. But that's a great question though. Great question, great question, all righty, let me see, it is 630.

Speaker 2: 28:40

I do have to prepare for my study group which is coming up at 7 o'clock. We're in week 16, I think, getting down to the last four weeks. Oh, another one more thing. I've got to point this out just in case. Having some family issues with my mom in Maryland, there is a chance that I may have to go help mom with mom. If that happens, there's a very good chance that it might impact the production of the podcast. Just want to give people a heads up. So if you start seeing the next couple, three, four weeks, maybe some stuff shows not get published. Keep in mind that's probably what's happening, okay, so keep us in your prayers and hopefully we can get past all that.

Speaker 1: 29:31

So until next time, everybody remember knowledge is power. Thanks for listening to let's Talk Cabling. So until next time, everybody remember knowledge is power and share it with your crew. Got questions or ideas for the show? Chuck wants to hear from you. Stay connected, stay informed and always aim for excellence. Until next time, keep those cables clean, your standards high and your future bright. Let's talk cabling, empowering the industry, one connection at a time.