AHL Copper is Dead......or is it?

The episode delves into the ongoing debate about the relevance of copper cabling versus fiber optics, exploring the strengths and weaknesses of each. We discuss cost implications, applications, and future developments in low-voltage installations, emphasizing the importance of understanding both options for informed decision-making in the industry.

• Exploring the relevance of the phrase "copper is dead"
• Comparing initial costs of copper and fiber installations
• Discussing Total Cost of Ownership for both cabling types
• Analyzing the applications of copper cabling 
• Highlighting fiber's advantages in network performance and security 
• Sharing real-world scenarios illustrating cabling choices
• Examining future trends and advancements in cabling technology
• Suggesting hybrid approaches as viable solutions for installations

Chapters

• 0:00 Comparing Copper and Fiber Cabling
• 9:02 Comparing Copper and Fiber Cost
• 12:47 Long-Term Cost Savings With Fiber
• 25:58 Understanding the Future of Cabling

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Welcome to let's Talk Cabling, the award-winning podcast where knowledge is power and the low-voltage industry connects. Hosted by Chuck Bowser, rcdd. We're here to empower installers, designers and industry pros with the tips, stories and best practices you need to stay ahead. From copper to fiber, standards to innovation, this is the show that keeps you plugged into success. So grab your tools, turn up the volume and let's talk cabling.

Speaker 2: 0:36

Wednesday night, 6 pm, eastern Standard Time. That can only mean one thing live Hours with your favorite RCDD. And you know that's me. Welcome to After Hours with Chuck Bowser, rcdd, bixie Technician, the show where we answer the tough questions submitted by installers, estimators, project managers and everybody else. Let's start off with what are you drinking? Tonight, chuck is drinking. Listen to this. Chuck is drinking Colazevia with a throat lozenge in it. Kaylin's in the house with a throat lozenge in it because I was teaching today, so I need a little bit for my throat. Going on, so there you go. So put in the chat box what are you drinking, what are you drinking? And also, also, we gotta do the acronym challenge. So the acronym challenge is shot. He's in the house. He's drinking a diet dr pepper as usual. Oh, I just discovered it. Look at that. Nice, I didn't know I could do that. Oh, the things you learn, the things you learn. So shot, he's in the. Shotzi is one of my longest supporters. He's been supporting this show for what? Three years now, shotzi, four years now, almost from day one. He's my longest, bestest supporter of the show.

Speaker 2: 1:58

So I want to talk about something different tonight Instead of doing questions. I'm getting tired of hearing the age-old debate copper's dead fiber, copper's dead fiber. People will say that are either being dishonest with themselves or they're totally clueless. So tonight I want to talk about that. I'm going to make a case for copper. I'm going to make a case for copper, I'm going to make a case for fiber, and then I'm going to see what do the numbers say as far as longevity and return on investment, and then I'm going to talk about maybe the best of both worlds. So I've got a lot of stuff to cover. I'm hoping I can get it done within 30 minutes. So again the reason I picked this topic today, because I see it in all over social media copper's dead, and you know. Here's the thing. Here's why I really want to cover it.

Speaker 2: 3:00

This show is going to be beneficial to not just installers or technicians, but also project managers and even estimators. Because, as an installer, you need to know what's going to be coming down the pike so you can get the right skill sets for it. Because if you keep doing the same thing, having the same skills, you're not going to accelerate in this industry. Think about the typewriter repairman who thought oh, this computer thing, it's a fad, it's going away. Yeah, where are they now? Let me ask you this Fort Wayne's in the house. Hello, fort Wayne, let me ask you this Do you know of anybody today who's a typewriter repairman? Probably not right. So, as installers, it's going to be critical that you know that. And then, as project managers and even estimators, you need to know what's coming down the pike so you can choose the best solution for the customers and you can stay current with them by keeping your skill sets up for as far as design practices, and business owners need to know this because it's going to help them plan for future demands.

Speaker 2: 4:07

So, again, like I said, we're going to cover the pros and cons of copper and pros and cons of fiber. We're talking about return costs, cost of investment, all that fun stuff. So let's start off with, first off, the case for copper. The case for copper, like it or not, copper cabling overall is cheaper than fiber optic cabling. You know the connectors. You know, depending on what you get, they're anywhere from a couple, three, four bucks to seven, eight bucks, depending on what you get. Fiber optic connectors you're looking at $12, $15, $20 a connector, right? So what's the acronym? I forgot the acronym buddy. I forgot it. Yes, and copper cable. I didn't actually do the pricing to see if copper was cheaper than fiber, but I know this. Copper is easier to terminate because you don't need fusion splicers, you don't need precision cleaving tools, you don't need fusion splicers, you don't need precision cleaving tools, you don't need VFLs. And another advantage to copper is most ICT professionals have years of experience working with copper, so it's going to be a lot of familiarity with it. There's a lot of people I see in our industry that they know copper but they don't know fiber and they want to learn more about fiber. So almost everybody who's in this industry at least knows copper. Not everybody knows fiber, but at least everybody knows copper.

Speaker 2: 5:33

Another advantage you have with copper if you start talking about power over Ethernet Now, power over Ethernet you know we're talking about wireless access points. We're talking about industrial sensors. We're talking about, you know we're talking about wireless access points. We're talking about industrial sensors. We're talking about, you know, cameras, wireless access points, all that stuff.

Speaker 2: 5:50

Internet of things we all have heard of it. A lot of it uses PoE and you can easily do a PoE device all the way up to 295 feet or 328 feet per channel In some scenarios, depending on the type of cable you pick. You can go past that, depending on whether or not you want to stay current with the ANSI standards or the IEEE standards. So in some cases you can actually go past that. Over-coupled cabling and putting power over copper for power over ethernet reduces the need for having separate power cablings. In some scenarios you don't have to hire an electrician to put an electrical receptacle next to your low voltage drop and power over ethernet. We can do 15 watt, 30 watt, 60 watt, 90 watt, 100 watt and there's a lot of devices that can be run off that.

Speaker 2: 6:44

Copper is going to still be and I think, the best perfect for short distance applications like local area networks, offices, maybe even some industrial environments. Because of that 100 meter reach, it can go up to that full 320 feet. It works well with commercial buildings. Inspectors are familiar with it so they're not going to give you as much harassment with it. And especially when you start talking about industrial environments, copper handles vibration better than fiber. It just does. It does. It's less likely to fail because of vibrations in industrial environments and patch cable flexibility.

Speaker 2: 7:25

It's easy to get copper patch cables. I don't know. You know you've gray bar annex or cse amazon. You know you can get copper patch cables pretty easy anywhere. Fiber patch cords sometimes can be a little bit more, a little more hard to get sometimes. Let me ask you this are you still installing copper or fiber? Tell me in the chat box Are you still installing copper or fiber and why or why not? Let me know in the chat box which you're doing and then follow that up with. If you had to look at the overall installs, what percentage would you say are copper installs and what percentage would you say would be fiber installs? Let me know in the chat box.

Speaker 2: 8:13

Moving on to the, let's talk about the case for fiber. There's no arguing the fact that we got networks that are. You know copper is good for. You know 1 gig, 2.5 gig, 5 gig, even in some cases 10 gig, fiber can easily support 10 gig, 40 gig, 100 gig and even way beyond some of the things that copper can even do. You know the good thing about fiber is it eliminates bottlenecks, and it does that because you know it's great, for that's why you'll see a lot of times Fiber eliminates bottlenecks, and it does that because it's great, for that's why you'll see a lot of times Fiber used in data centers, fiber used for FiberOptic backbones and again, there's no denying it, fiber is growing by leaps and bounds. Leaps and bounds.

Speaker 2: 9:02

And if you want to talk about future-proofing Fiber, while it's not as cheap as copper for putting in installs, it's going to have a longer life cycle. They say the average life cycle of a structured cable plant is 7 to 10 years and that's not because of the cable, it's because of the bandwidth requirements and everything needing to be upgraded. So computers come out and the copper cable in the system can no longer handle those high bandwidth Fiber. At minimum 20 years a life cycle with minimal to no performance degradation, I mean it's going to last. In fact, single-mode fiber. We don't know what is the maximum bandwidth that we can put across that cable. So there's nothing better future-proof than a cable that can handle everything we have today and everything we have tomorrow, because we don't know what it is.

Speaker 2: 10:05

You know, fiber will also supportiber will also support 5G, it will also support smart buildings and even, like I said, like I mentioned before, the high-speed backbones. And there is, like I said, fiber is gaining ground. It absolutely is gaining ground. There's more and more people who are learning how to do fiber. There's more and more organizations teaching fiber. There's more and more electronics manufacturers who are making fiber optic connection devices, and that is expanding.

Speaker 2: 10:38

And when you talk about fiber you can't argue the fact that fiber is more reliable as far as interference from EMI. You know. In fact it's immune to it. It is absolutely immune to EMI, unlike copper is. And especially if you start talking about industrial environments or here's one, and I can't remember the acronym off the top of my head but there is a type of fiber that they put inside of electrical transmission lines to go long distances. You can't do that with a Cat6 cable. It won't do the distance and it can't be that close to electrical noise. So fiber cable is more reliable and it's also more secure than copper, because with copper some systems like analog systems, you could literally just take a probe, push the button and hold it right next to the cable and listen to the conversation. You can't do that with fiber. It's photons. You've got to change it over to electrons and it's a lot, lot harder. It's way more secure to eavesdrop and to try to penetrate it. So that's why fiber is going to be a better solution for as far as security and fiber is really well suited for high temperature and high humidity environments.

Speaker 2: 11:56

It truly is Copper cabling. High temperature you have more insertion loss. High humidity electrons are lazy. They're going to go towards insertion loss, right? High humidity Electrons are lazy. They're going to go towards the path of least resistance. And if a cable gets wet because of a whole bunch of humidity in the air, that could cause insertion as well.

Speaker 2: 12:15

Now let's talk about what do the numbers actually say. Let's talk about installation versus long-term cost, right? So basically, yeah, the upfront cost to install it versus the long-term savings. Copper right out of the gate it's cheaper upfront to install, right? You know the staff that you're going to hire to do copper cabling is not going to be the same hourly rate as somebody who does fiber. Right. Somebody who can do fiber can easily do copper, but the copper skill set a lot of times it's going to be a cheaper labor rate to do that for new installs.

Speaker 2: 12:47

Fiber over time is going to save you money because, like we talked about earlier, it's easily expandable, it has very low power consumption and it lasts a lot longer. It lasts, like I said before, up to 20 years. So comparing copper to fiber in different types of environments and projects. You know fiber is going to use less pathway space than copper will, and that's a consideration. You need to think about the life cycle considerations when you talk about copper and fiber.

Speaker 2: 13:19

How does each technology really last? You know fiber can last, like I said, over 20 years. Copper is not going to go as much and if you have a harsh environment your copper is going to last even less. It's not going to go as much, and if you have a harsh environment, your copper is going to last even less. So some best practices that PMs and estimators really should factor in is what I call the total cost of ownership. The total cost of ownership Not just how much it costs for the material today, not how much it costs for the labor today, but spread that cost over the lifespan of that system. So even though copper is cheaper to install, it's only going to last that seven to 10 years before the bandwidth can no longer. The copper bandwidth can no longer handle the processors that are out there today. Fiber, again, single mode it literally is unlimited in bandwidth because we don't know how much bandwidth it can handle. So if you take the cost of putting in fiber and you spread that over 20 years, it will become cheaper over total cost of ownership.

Speaker 2: 14:16

Now here's the thing. Customers are coming in a couple different varieties. They can be the cost-conscious or the cheap customers, and there's the early adopters who like to spend money out there customers. And there's the early adopters who like to spend money out there, and there's a place for every type of contractor out there, every type of installer out there, new people getting into having their own low-voltage business. They end up working for a lot of the cost-conscious customers because they haven't figured out or know where to contact the bigger customers, the customers who want to spend the money because they don't mind paying extra for being leading-edge technology. So you've really got to be good and you have to be skilled at discussing the customer's needs versus their budget.

Speaker 2: 15:02

This is a good way to talk them into going fiber if that's the way you want to go. Yes, fiber may cost you more initially and a good thing to do is to do a price comparison ahead of time. If they know they want to do X amount of drops here's the copper solution price, here's the fiber solution price They'll see that the fiber is more expensive. But then when you break it down. Okay, 10 years for the copper. You got to replace it to go to the next level, which we don't know what it is yet Fiber, it's going to be good for 20 years. That's an eye-opener. That's an eye-opener and they'll see that, basically, fiber has saved them money over the long term. Again, the problem is getting them there. Getting them there. I'll give you an example.

Speaker 2: 15:45

I did a project. I I was a manager for a large company. We had a project down in Miami where we were doing a school and they put hubs in each of the classrooms and they ran six four-pair category radio cables to each of the classrooms and they attached conduit to the outside of the building to get to all these category rated cables to each of the classrooms and they attached conduit to the outside of the building to get to all of these. And they realized after we finished the project that it was done wrong. They used inside plant cable, not outside plant cable, and these were mounted outside and they're exposed to the environment, so they really should have been outside plant rated cabling. So the customer was obviously mad at that. So they asked us what can we do to fix this Now, keeping in mind that this is going to be a rework and so we were going to be funding all of this.

Speaker 2: 16:40

The customer wasn't going to be paying for anything. The customer paid for a solution. We said this would work and we found out that it wouldn't work because they picked the wrong type of copper cabling. So I priced in the copper cabling, the replacement with the outside plant cable, and I looked at the outside diameter of the outside plant cabling. I quickly realized that, in case you don't know, this outside plant copper cable is larger than inside plant copper cable. And if I replace all that with outside plant cable, the conduit was no longer large enough. We were going to be exceeding the 40% fill ratios. So now we're not looking at just replacing copper cable to every classroom, we're also looking at replacing the conduit to every classroom. That's a double whammy, a double whammy.

Speaker 2: 17:30

So I came up with the idea and I said to the customer look, how about, instead of using hubs that are using copper connectivity, why don't we switch it over to fiber? You'll get more bandwidth? And they immediately jumped on that. Yes, yes, we want to do that. But is it going to be? Is you're going to charge us extra to go with the fiber and I checked with my boss and I said said he said, go ahead and move forward with it. I'm like, okay, here's the thing. We did the fiber for free because we knew that it would cost us one third the cost of having replaced the copper with outside plant copper and the conduit, so it was way cheaper for us. We told him look, we'll do the fiber and all you got to do is just upgrade your switches for each of the clasps to one that's fiber capable. They easily agreed to that and we got away with literally only taking about a $50,000 hit instead of a $150,000 hit, because there was a lot of conduit and a lot of outside plants that would need to be replaced.

Speaker 2: 18:31

So let me tell you that in the chat box. Tell me if you've ever had a scenario where you've had fiber ultimately save you money. And you know there's other things too. I mean, you've got air-blown fiber that can easily go for. You know you can easily put fiber in or take it back out and replace it with other fibers. Fiber has a lot more ability to grow Copper. You know you can be taking it out and having to replace it, you know. So the true scenario is why not the best of both worlds? The best of both worlds, right worlds. The best of both worlds, right. So instead, when you start talking about copper to the desktop but then fiber optic for the backbones, that way you're not buying a fiber NIC card for every single user on the on the network. So I see the beard of knowledge is in here. Die beard of knowledge.

Speaker 2: 19:26

Tell me, how much is a fiber NIC card for just a workstation? How much is a fiber NIC card for just a workstation? How much is a fiber NIC card for just a workstation? I'm pretty sure you probably know that off the top of your head. I don't shop those very often because you'd have to buy one of those for everyone.

Speaker 2: 19:41

Hey, the old tech guy's in the house. He says level three communications was one of the largest in their day to use air blown fiber Exactly New. Obviously he's asking me new or used New? How much is a new fiber NIC card for a workstation? Brand new, just a generic run of the mill. So Brent's here saying he ran fiber to set another data center closer to about 100 Cat6 cables instead of pulling all those. So fiber will save you for that. So fiber will save you for that. It will absolutely save you for that.

Speaker 2: 20:12

And as I mentioned, as Ed said about the air-blown fiber, it's going to be really easy for retrofits and a lot of times, even though it's not required by standards, a lot of times, especially inside of office buildings, we install Interduct, so the Interduct now you've got a pathway for the future fiber as well. Reinstall Interduct, so the Interduct now you've got a pathway for the future fiber as well. So Kaylin is saying $70. And the old tech guy says that fiber NIC card costs about $45. But here's the thing Most workstations correct me if I'm wrong, my computer guy is on the thing here Most workstations come with a copper NIC card with no extra additional cost. Am I correct there? So if you want fiber, that's an additional $45 per workstation. Times, the number of workstations, that adds up pretty quickly. That adds up pretty quickly. So, like I said, the workstations already come with the copper NIC cards already done with them.

Speaker 2: 21:10

So why not copper from the workstation to the telecom room, fiber optic for the backbone? I've done a lot of jobs for the federal government where they would do fiber to the desktop along with copper to the desktop, and even the federal government in most scenarios back then because it's changed since I've done it most scenarios back then they would leave the fiber dark because even they didn't have enough money for fiber NIC cards for every workstation, unless there was an overdriving need for security. If you're talking about like a secure location where they want less people being able to tap, then they would spend the extra money for the fiber. Now the key is when you're doing a hybrid scenario. You got to plan it properly to make sure that you avoid bottlenecks. Make sure that there's enough strands of fiber to handle all of the networks.

Speaker 2: 21:59

Beard of knowledge yes, I've already covered that. I already said the fiber is more secure, absolutely. It cannot easily wiretap. I mentioned earlier with copper. All you've got to do with some systems is just literally take a probe, push the button and hold it next to the cable and you can hear the entire conversation. A lot of people don't know that, don't know that. So you know. So where the technology is going to fit, you know the best application.

Speaker 2: 22:20

Again, fiber for the backhaul. Fiber is really great at long distances, at data centers, in campuses and, as Ed Dooltech, who's in there tonight, will tell you, isps. That's where copper kind of stubs its foot Copper for the workstation and everything. It's going to be great there, but the key is where is the industry going? Where is the industry going? Because I'm saying right now, you know I hear people saying, well, cat5e is going to be around forever. You know, they used to say the same thing about Cat3. They used to say the same thing about POTS cabling, pots cabling. But there's no doubt, I think, with Moore's Law, where the capacity of a chip doubles every 18 months or something like that, just look at where we were five years ago compared to today as far as devices and compared to computers and bandwidth and all of the different devices that are going on network. Yes, some of them are going to be running over copper. You're not going to run a. If you're putting in a Nest thermostat system, you're really not going to run fiber to that. You're not going to run fiber to that. You're not going to run fiber to that.

Speaker 2: 23:31

And then Ed, the old tech guy. One of his favorite things he likes to talk about is AI and automation. How is that going to impact all of these networks? If somebody says that they know how AI is going to impact network infrastructure, the vast majority of them are clueless. Clueless Because, especially when you're talking to engineers like my age I'm not a typical person who's my age, because I'm an early adopter of technology. I use AI a lot, a lot, for lots of things, for the podcast and for everything. And there's some people who just they can't even spell AI, much less know how to use AI. And so you can start doing more things with AI.

Speaker 2: 24:21

What additional devices that can be putting on the network? What kind of a bandwidth strain is that going to put on the network? And will the high-performance copper cable in Cat6A, cat8, is it going to be able to handle that? Cat 8 can do 40 gig, but not the full 295 feet. Now, if you're in a house, okay, that's fine, you can be fine from those houses, and Cat 8's really designed for data centers. But I see TikTok videos, I see Instagram videos of people putting Cat 8 in their house. I get it. I understand why, Because if you're going to invest, putting cable in a residential scenario it's a lot harder than doing commercial installs. Why not go with the best that you can afford so it lasts longer. It lasts longer. But again, with AI, we don't know how that's going to affect the bandwidth monster that chews up everything that we need.

Speaker 2: 25:11

Ed, the old tech guy in TikTok says the interesting thing about fiber is it does not conduct electricity. So in a cell tower they love it. Yes, they absolutely do. The old tech guy and I was just mentioning earlier that there's a type of fiber and I can't remember the acronym for it, I think it's AP something where they put fiber optic cabling in electrical distribution cables, transmission power line cables, because you can easily go across long distances that way, right? So my question is do we think and I want you to put put this in the chat box Do you think copper is going to be around for 10 years in 10 years? Tell me the chat box, do you think copper is going to be around in 10 years? And here's why I ask this question, because there are.

Speaker 2: 25:58

There was an interesting article and I mentioned this on the live streams before. There was an interesting article where the was it AT&T? I think it was AT&T. At&t is mandated by the FCC to carry a certain amount of analog phone lines. Well, at&t seek sought permission to get rid of that because people are migrating over to using cellular phones as their primary phones. People are using phones over their cable TV network. So the traditional analog phone line coming from a central office to your home, it's going away, it's going away. The problem we're going to run into is especially with the cellular side, is there's only a limited number of frequencies Until you come up with encoding schemes where you can do multiple transmissions off of different types of I mean the same frequency but do multiple bandwidth across that, there's only a limited number of frequencies. The Bearded Knowledge says but we're going to be pushing frequencies to push more bandwidth. Exactly that's what I was just kind of saying.

Speaker 2: 27:07

And the Oltec guy says Cat 6 is fine as long as you run it in a way that can be easily rerun or replaced, and that's where. So in commercial office, that's not hard. I mean you drop tile ceilings in most places. So in commercial office, that's not hard. I mean you drop tile ceilings in most places. Good to go. Residential, that's going to be a little bit harder to do because most houses have locked tile ceilings, have drywall ceilings. So you've got to think about that ahead of time. If you're having a house built for you, why not have them run either conduit, which is going to be expensive, or maybe interduct, that could be expensive, and I see a lot of people like to use what's called SmurfTube SmurfTube and they'll just run it back to the main point of penetration. That way, if they want to switch out from Cat6 to Cat8, they can Just keep in mind there's different outside diameters between Cat6, cat6a and Cat8. So keep that in mind.

Speaker 2: 28:03

I have a list of 147 pro tips on my website and pro tip number 12 on my website is always leave a pull string. Always leave a pull string, because you never know. You never know. So even if you put cable in, put a pull string behind it. If you pull your cable out, bring a pull string in, so that way when you go to new stuff you can always put it in there. Right? Let me see Albert here saying hello, chuck. The only thing I can think of is installing a 12-strand multimode instead of a 6-strand, even though initially they needed two strands. I only carry Cat6. I made the move from having Cat5 to carry Cat6 over a year ago, having to use Cat7, cat8, but I've used Game Changer, yes, so you know, here's I'm going to give you a tip. I don't share this pro tip very often.

Speaker 2: 28:50

I'm going to give you a pro tip as an installer, as an MSP, as a low-voltage cable company, on how you can exceed your customer's expectations easily and make them happy, because a happy customer is going to be a customer that's going to be around a long time. If a customer hires you to pull a six-strand of fiber between two points, point A and point B six-strand of fiber okay, and you win the project, why not price in a 12-strand? Here's the thing the amount of labor it takes to pull a 6-strand versus the amount of labor it takes to pull a 12-strand is exactly the same. The only difference you're going to have or run into is the cost of termination and testing. So what you do is, if they want a 6-strand, pull a 12-strand a day, only terminate six strands on each side, test them and then, when they realize that they didn't have enough bandwidth and they want you to pull more, and you say, okay, I can do that for this dollar value, which is going to be significantly cheaper than having to pull another 12-strand, and you will be the customer's like hey, you were really looking out for us, right?

Speaker 2: 30:00

Car electricians hate my pull strings. Are you a wimp or something? Just pull fresh. Yeah, don't get me going about electricians versus low voltage. There's a whole kind of thing there. Oh hey, by the way, don't forget, let's Talk Cabling t-shirt stuff. Make sure you buy the merch. You can go to Amazon, go to Amazon, type in let's talk cabling t-shirts and you will find I got let's talk cabling shirts, wire monkey shirts, estimating shirts, I've got baseball shirts, women's t-shirts, tank tops, all kinds of stuff. Make sure you visit that page, right. All right, so look, we are at 631. Did I have anything else on my list here to do my final thoughts? I forgot that section, so here's my final shots. Amazoncom here's my final thoughts.

Speaker 2: 30:52

Copper's not dead. It's not dead. I wouldn't even say it's on life support, but it's got pneumonia. Does that make sense? It's got pneumonia, but it's not on life support. But it's got pneumonia. Does that make sense? It's got pneumonia, but it's not on life support.

Speaker 2: 31:03

Yet Fiber is gaining ground, and it's gaining ground quickly. There's still a lot of types of jobs out there that copper excels at over fiber, and until we figure out how to get past that hurdle, I think we'll always be doing copper. I mean, look at it this way how many pots cabling installs are still out there firing up and and and powering fax machines and analog phone lines and and fire alarm, backup circuits and stuff like that. It's. There's still that kind of stuff out there. I think hybrids are going to be the best solution.

Speaker 2: 31:47

The best thing I can say is, when you see somebody saying copper is dead, encourage conversation, go to industry forums and talk about it because it's not dead. Copper is not dead, it's going to be around. If you want to be the most successful technician in this industry right now, my suggestion to you is get copper certified, get fiber certified. You'll never have too many skills, never have too many skills. So I hope this all kind of made sense. I just I don't know. I just got thinking about it last night when I was doing something else. I was like you know, I'm sick and tired of the whole copper is dead scenario. Usually people say copper is dead or the I hate to say this because it makes me sound like a boomer the young whippersnappers. The young whippersnappers who don't realize all the things that copper is being used for, right, yeah. So shout out to saying ADSS is fiber in transmission lines. Yes, exactly. All right, everybody.

Speaker 1: 32:44

I appreciate everybody coming on tonight. Remember until next time. Knowledge is power. There we go. Thanks for listening to let's Talk Cabling, the award-winning podcast where knowledge is power and the low-voltage industry connects. If you enjoyed today's episode, don't forget to subscribe, leave a review and share it with your crew. Got questions or ideas for the show? Chuck wants to hear from you. Stay connected, stay informed and always aim for excellence. Until next time, keep those cables clean, your standards high and your future bright. Cables clean, your standards high and your future bright. Let's Talk Cabling Empowering the industry, one connection at a time.