Unlocking the Future of Data Center Connectivity: Expert Insights on Fiber Optic Innovations with Mark Weiniger

Curious about the future of data center connectivity? Tune in to our conversation with Mark Weiniger from CEcomm, a veteran with over 26 years of experience in the field. Mark sheds light on the rising interest in fiber optics, clarifying the distinctions between single mode and multi-mode fiber optic cabling. Discover why single mode fiber is increasingly the go-to solution for data centers, offering superior performance over longer distances.

Gain actionable insights on best practices for fiber installation, from the importance of continuity, pinning, and DB loss testing to maintaining clean single-mode fibers. Mark emphasizes why basic and tier one testing should be prioritized over tier two OTDR testing for accurate DB loss measurement. We also stress the significance of re-testing after installation to ensure optimal network performance, setting your projects up for success.

Finally, explore the practical benefits of using American-made fiber solutions, including meeting government RFP requirements and avoiding project delays with readily available stock. Mark also highlights technological advancements like bend-insensitive fiber and high-density connectors, which are revolutionizing the industry. Whether you're a small business or a new entrant, discover how pre-terminated, pre-tested, and pre-labeled fiber can simplify installations and open up new business opportunities. Don't miss this episode filled with expert advice and industry innovations!

Chapters

• 0:00 Fiber Fundamentals
• 6:26 Fiber Installation Best Practices
• 20:40 American-Made Fiber Solutions for Efficiency
• 26:11 Fiber Optic Installation Cost Considerations

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Hey Wiremonkeys, welcome to another episode of let's Talk Cabling. We're talking fiber fundamentals. Welcome to the show where we tackle the tough questions submitted by installers, technicians, project managers, estimators, customers, everybody. We're connecting at the human level so that we can connect the world. If you're watching this show on YouTube, would you mind subscribing and hitting the bell button when new shows are published? If you're listening to us on one of the audio podcast platforms, would you mind leaving us a five-star rating? Those simple little steps helps us take on the algorithm so we can educate, encourage and enrich the lives of people in the ICT industry.

Speaker 1: 0:54

Thursday night, 6 pm, eastern Standard Time. Did you know I do a live stream? It's on TikTok, linkedin, facebook, everywhere, where you get to ask your favorite RCDD and you know that's me, don't even try to pretend like I'm not your favorite. Your favorite RCDD questions on installation design, certification, project management, estimation. I even do career path questions. But I can hear you now. But, chuck, I'm driving my truck at Thursday night at 6 pm. I can't watch a video on Crash. It's okay, I record them and you can go to letstalkcablingcom and watch them at your convenience. And finally, while this show is free and will always remain free. If you find value in this content and you'd like to support this show, would you click on that QR code right there? You can buy me a cup of coffee, you can buy some let's Talk Cabling merch, and you can also find other ways to support us as well. We're also looking for corporate sponsorship. So if your company values are educate, encourage and enrich, reach out to me and let's talk.

Speaker 1: 1:58

You know, one of the things that I see most conversations about in my ICT areas of influence is fiber. Everybody wants to do fiber, everybody wants to learn fiber, everybody wants to get certified fiber. Okay, I get it, I really get it. Fiber is interesting, it's cool. Fiber is not always the answer, though, but I get why people are interested, because there's a perception out there that hey, if I can do fiber, I can make more money, and that's not necessarily a false statement. The more skills you have, the more valuable you are. So what we're doing is I'm doing a show on fiber fundamentals. We're going to address some fundamental things that I hear quite often from questions and comments in the social media sphere about fiber, and you know I had to bring on a subject matter expert to help me. So welcome to the show, mr Mark Weiniger. How are you doing, my friend?

Speaker 2: 2:50

Hey, thank you for not butchering the name. Doing great I tried.

Speaker 1: 2:53

I tried See what people don't see before the show is. I wrote his name down phonetically and I got a post-it note right here. So I tried to make sure I get it right, because I don't take it as an insult when somebody butchers my last name, but I know some people who do so and I'm cognizant of that fact. So so, mark, you know, for the, for the few people in the industry who may not who you are or the company that you work for, just give us a 50,000 foot view of you and the company you work for.

Speaker 2: 3:22

Okay, so uh, cecom, we've been around for 26 years, uh certified woman owned business. Basically, uh, we've been eat, sleeping and breathing in the data centers doing connectivity and uh associated products with connectivity. We, um we like to deal with uh plethora of of uh of people from integrators, installers, end users, consultants, the whole circle of our industry and we've been manufacturing our own products and also distributing Me Too products to go along with what we have. It allows the customer to get a more broad breadth of what they need and also get it in a timely manner without any sort of constraints and cost constraints. So, again, we've been doing this for 26 years. I've been doing it for over 30, hence the gray hair and it's I get it.

Speaker 1: 4:27

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I got gray hair too, but I shaved mine off. It's funny. I got in a conversation with my kids over the weekend because they came up for a party and my one daughter's a hairdresser and she's like dad, why do you always shave your head? Because it's the only time I've been doing for like the last couple years. And and I said do you want to know the real reason she goes? Why? I said consistency in my videos yeah, there you go that's it.

Speaker 1: 4:52

That's the only reason I do it, because I I'm horrible about remembering to cut my hair. So I was looking at videos. I see, you know one video, my hair would be, you know, this long, another be shorter. And you know what, if I shave my head all the time, it's consistent. There you go Chuck's vein. You learned something new today.

Speaker 2: 5:08

Makes sense.

Speaker 1: 5:10

Yes, so let me ask you. So you do a lot of work in the data center sphere, so I think that would make you highly qualified to discuss fiber optic cables, connectivity and all that fun stuff, connectivity and all that fun stuff. Sure, can you explain the key differences between single mode and multi-mode fiber optic cabling and how these differences impact installation and performance?

Speaker 2: 5:31

Just basically, we've seen now we're selling a lot of single mode fiber over multi-mode and to distinguish that, it's distance limitations, how how much you can get through the so-called pipe. So, uh, it's no longer single mode is yellow and multi-mode is aqua, because you can get it in any colors right now. You know, just, uh, depending on what your flavor is and and I know we're going to be talking a little bit more about that but, um, yeah, we're, uh, we're seeing a lot more single mode fiber. Single mode fiber, you could run over much longer distances kilometers compared to feet. But yeah, we're seeing a lot more single-mode fiber. Single-mode fiber you could run over much longer distances kilometers compared to feet.

Speaker 1: 6:17

And you know that's basically it. So I would imagine in data centers distance is not really that big of a consideration, because you know your data centers got like a, an amazon or an ebay data center or something huge like that. You know the distance is not good. The real, I think to me would be the real factor to consider is bandwidth. You know bandwidth. You know single mode fiber is so good that we don't have computer equipment good enough to tell us what is the maximum bandwidth. We can't stretch the capabilities of single mode, and I always thought single mode was more expensive, especially when you factor in the cost of the transceivers and stuff. But what you were just saying, though you're saying single mode is becoming cheaper than multimode. Now, is that what you're saying?

Speaker 2: 7:04

single mode is becoming cheaper than multi-mode. Now, is that, is that what you were saying? Basically, it's uh, I haven't really seen a huge difference in price for, uh, the connectivity, uh, for the connectivity. And again, it comes down to the hardware which is dictating. You know what, what we're using right.

Speaker 1: 7:19

Do you guys do fiber outside of data centers as well, or is it just your?

Speaker 2: 7:22

data center specific. Yeah, yeah, no, we do, connectorizing buildings and internal warehouse AI applications for different robotics and things of that nature, sure, let's talk a little bit about testing, right.

Speaker 1: 7:39

What are some of the most critical tests that should be performed on a file-wrapped cable to just make sure that it's kind of meeting the industry standards, and what kind of tools or equipment do you think are going to be essential for those tests?

Speaker 2: 7:50

You know I've always seen what I've seen over the years is the most simplistic tests out there, such as continuity making sure that if you're using eight fiber or 12 fiber you want to look for that through a continuity test.

Speaker 2: 8:09

Making sure that some of your MTP MPO connections are either pinned or not pinned and I know I'm getting away a little bit from the testing, but it all comes into play about keeping things simple.

Speaker 2: 8:21

Once you determine that, that you have the right fibers being connected, the right pinning being done and the right connectors, then you can get into your testing. And usually where we're a manufacturer, all of our internals and our fibers are already pre-tested from the factory bench tested, pre-tested from the factory bench tested. And if you've dealt with fiber on a regular basis, you know and I'll separate it out single mode is very, very touchy in the sense of once you take off a dust cap and allow it to get out into, let the air get to it or what have you, it just gets dirty and you sit there and you have to clean and clean and clean. So we try to do the minimal amount of handling of that going into the infrastructure because it's it's preventative. So but we made sure that there's continuity testing, pinning testing and then also a DB loss. That's where we just start and go.

Speaker 1: 9:26

And that's what you test as it's coming out of your factory. Correct, correct? Yes.

Speaker 2: 9:31

And we already have DV losses and certain.

Speaker 1: 9:35

Are those test results provided to the end user or the customer when you send those harnesses?

Speaker 2: 9:40

Correct when we send out the harnesses and or fiber optic cassettes. Everything is put right on the cassette, so it takes any guesswork out. You look at the cassette and it'll have serial number, part number, test results, pinning, type of mode of fiber single, multi and then the pinning on top of the cassettes as well. Just no guesswork. You go in and you do your work.

Speaker 1: 10:09

Do you recommend that, after the installers install the cabling and the harnesses, even though they've already been tested, do you recommend that they test it again after the installation?

Speaker 2: 10:20

I guess some companies want to certify their network and again, especially where we've come with fiber, if it doesn't work when you plug it in you just replace a cable, a jumper or what have you. But yeah, I recommend them. At least you know doing the basics. And once you get the basics then the rest all falls into place and we and I've seen that for over almost 30 years- yeah, this you know.

Speaker 1: 10:51

The the testing part of fiber is where I think a lot of people get hung up, because there's tier one testing and there's tier two testing and a lot of people don't really understand the differences between those. Most manufacturers are going to want tier one testing because you're measuring the actual DB loss. Tier two testing you're using an OTDR and that's not really a loss measurement. It's calculating the loss based on refraction. But what happens is customers get they see that fancy, you know OTDR trace, and they think, well, that's what we want, we want OTDR. Well, you know, otdrs are better for troubleshooting. They're not as good for basic certification. What the transmitter's putting out, what's being lost at the made of pairs, what's being lost as the signal goes over the fiber, as to the total overall loss. I should do a show one day on fiber optic loss budget.

Speaker 2: 11:46

That's what I should do.

Speaker 1: 11:48

I avoid this subject because it's a hard subject to have in a podcast and have it in a meaningful way that people can come away with. Remember, this is being put out in video and audio. Imagine somebody listening to just the audio portion of me explaining fiber-optic laws and budgets. Yeah, that would be kind of hard. And now a message from our sponsor.

Speaker 4: 12:11

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Speaker 1: 12:56

So let's talk about some installation best practices. Mark, what are some common mistakes that installers make when they're putting in fiber optic cables and how can they avoid those pitfalls?

Speaker 2: 13:06

Okay so, we've actually gone ahead and tried to alleviate any of that in the field. So, having the experience that I've had, not only have I had to design products, build products, sell products, but also install products. So I know some of the pitfalls that go on and, being as old as I am, pulling back a couple reams of the onion to look at what is necessary. So we started doing kitting. So we started kitting the products for the project so that when the installer gets on site everything is labeled on the box, they know they have everything for that job. Now you're on the job. You know what you have to connectorize the products.

Speaker 2: 13:59

Products now it's just making sure, when you're taking the products out and connectorizing them, making sure that you're cleaning. I can't stress cleaning enough. I've had products sent back to me saying this stuff doesn't work, it's not testing out. We come back, take a one click, click, click and then tested ourselves. It's like there's nothing wrong with this, right, it works. So the old saying, the KISS saying keep it simple. Keep it simple. I mean if you get products that are pre-terminated, pre-labeled, pre-tested, unless it gets run over by a tank, and sometimes if you have armored bend-insensitive fiber, that may not even hurt it unless it over by a tank, and sometimes if you have armored bend-insensitive fiber, that may not even hurt it unless it goes over a connector. Just keep your install simple, and that's where I start with, and again, just knowing what you're installing and why, and we try to do the rest. You know, make it easy for implementation and we try to do the rest you know, make it easy for our implementation.

Speaker 1: 15:01

You know every Bixie class I've ever sat in and every Bixie best practice manual I've ever read. You know the TDMM or the ITSA manual. They always say the number one problem with fiber is contamination. It does turn to debris and you know what happens is technicians out in the field get lulled into that false sense of security. Well, this just came straight from the manufacturer. It's in a plastic bag, okay. Well, yes, they do clean them, but in production sometimes things happen and if you don't take due diligence, like you said you talked about taking the protective cap off the end of the fiber, about taking the protective cap off the off the end of the fiber. The second you do that it's now being attracted to dust and and all kinds of stuff in the atmosphere around it. So it's number. There are other issues, don't get me wrong. There are other issues.

Speaker 1: 15:49

You can run with fiber, but if you have, if your fiber's not working, the very first thing you need to check is is it clean? Yeah, is it clean, correct and use a scope. Use a scope your 200 power scope, 400 power scope or a lot of the manufacturers have the scopes that you can attach to your smartphones and stuff. Exactly Right, and just do that. Oh, by the way, pro tip here If you have one of those digital scopes that you can pull up on a screen, take a picture of that end face, because a lot of times it gives you the measurements. Take a picture of that end face, cause a lot of times it gives you the measurements. Take a picture of that. Make it part of the as bill package. Yeah, yeah. And what that's going to do is in the long run, is if, if the it person let's say that it's a Friday afternoon and they're doing some some swapping testing and they disconnect a jumper and oh look, it's five o'clock, I got to go home but they forget to put the protective caps on, so that thing sits open all weekend. It comes in on monday when they plug in.

Speaker 1: 16:46

It doesn't work now, because it's got a good layer. It doesn't take actually a good layer, it does. It just takes just one particle. It does in the right spot to anything over five microns gonna cause you a problem, yeah, and now they're gonna. But they're gonna blame guy. They're going to say, look, your fiber's bad, when the real problem is contamination. If you get that documentation you can show them, say look, here's the screen snapshot. It was clean when I got done installing it. Let's talk about what happened after the install.

Speaker 2: 17:16

We actually we stock I won't do a plug for the testing company we just partnered with one and these products it's under $5,000. You could have everything at the end of your fingertips handheld units that will do all this stuff and it'll save you so much time in the front end, back end, getting this fiber up and running, getting the network up and running.

Speaker 1: 17:41

Yeah, we could have. That's another show I could do is on testers, right, because there's one tester that's let's just call it the gold standard. You probably know who I'm talking about, right, the gold standard. Their testers are extremely expensive. Their testers are really good, but there are testers out there that do the exact same thing. As long as it tests to the standards you know, and unless you have a requirement from a customer saying that you have to use this manufacturer's tester I mean as long as it's compliant with the standards I think you're good to go. What are some other tips? Let's say that you got a very complex install right, and let's say you got different types of lands, different types of fibers. What can a technician or a designer do to make that installation not only easier for the installer but also easier for the IT person? You know who's going to handle that network years after they walk off the job site.

Speaker 2: 18:39

So what we've done is we've came up with color cassettes. So you know, everybody has gray black, what have you when? We own our molds and whatnot. We decided to go with 12 colors, 12 colors of the fiber array, and then we found out that we could do any color as long as you have a Pantone, so we can go all the way down the road of having a separated. You can separate your networks based on color, whatever color you want, and the cost doesn't go up. It is what it is. So we have the same cost for our colored cassettes as we do as our regular black cassettes, and the colored cassettes still have all of the test results multi-mode, single-mode, pinning, non-pinned or pinned. Description of the product. So yeah, and then we'll kit that, and then we'll put in colored jumpers with it, colored trunk cables, and that's gone a long way, and everything per length. So if you do your rack elevations, we'll have everything kitted for your rack elevations.

Speaker 1: 19:52

Yeah, I think if you, like you said earlier, if you keep it simple, that's going to save the customer a lot of headaches and that's going to make the customer happier, right, and that's going to make the customer more likely to choose you to come back again, right, for a future opportunity, if you make it easier for them Right Now. You know there are colors associated that are written in the standards. But remember, the standards are voluntary. Customers can vary from the standards they want to and the standards they want to, and the reason they call for certain colors is that it makes it easier. For, let's say, I did a project once in Dallas, texas. The customer was Mary Kay Cosmetics, pink. They wanted all their file rob the cabling done in pink Because that's their corporate color, right, and you know so fine. We did that. We did everything pink, the.

Speaker 1: 20:40

The advantages of using the colors in the standard is if somebody comes back later, let's say, let's say you got, you're doing that project and a customer calls you up that you did two years ago and they say, hey, can you come out pull some more fiber? Well, I don't know about you, but I can't remember what I did two years ago. I can't. I can't remember what I did two years ago. I can't remember what I did two days ago, but you happen to have a technician or an apprentice picking up some materials right around the corner. He said, hey, go to this job site, look at the fiber in the building, tell me what color the jacket is.

Speaker 1: 21:11

That's the whole reason for the color criticism. But if the customer wants to have different colors for different segments, they obviously can do that and that would make the IT person's job a lot easier. Let me ask you this A lot of times when you start getting into those custom colors, a lot of times there's usually an MOQ, a minimum order quantity. Yeah, is that something that you guys have in place, or do you stock additional colors and you haven't stocked? There is no MOQ attached to that.

Speaker 2: 21:39

We just came out with the colors about within a year ago, and, uh, so what we did is we built up, uh, the 12 colors right off the bat, and then what we're uh doing is we're going to see where the customers are going to drive us. Uh, we react to what the customers want and and the other thing is, all this stuff is assembled for us in the United States and we're here in the Midwest, so it's American-made and the majority of the products that are in there are American-made and, as you know, some of them you just can't get in America. You have to go offshore. But we have an American-made assembled product and we'll stock for the customer. Again, we'll kit for the customer.

Speaker 2: 22:23

We will make it as easy as possible because once you start getting into cloud implementations, you've got people flying all around the country or coming from out of the country into our country to install and they're going to need their PDUs, they're going to need, you know, their wire cable management, they're going to need all of the trunk cables and jumpers and labels and cleaners and all that. So if it's all kitted and spelled out, it makes life easier and there's no extra cost to it. We do it because we've been there. There's nothing worse than having your wife call you, or or your husband call you while you're installing at 11 o'clock at night and you're short a fiber jumper that you can't get the job done. Right, we've all been there. That never happens, right.

Speaker 1: 23:10

Why aren't you home?

Speaker 2: 23:11

Well, I got to go. I got to go and pick it up at the office, which is two hours away, two hours, but you know it's Murphy's law, right? So whatever you could do to stop that from happening, now, in different cloud locations that you have, you have bins of fiber and of course, you know that three meter fiber, which is, you know, nine feet, 10 feet, is used in a one foot application, because that's what's there. So, yeah, that's what we try to alleviate a little bit. That's how you get the spaghetti Right. So that's what we try to alleviate a little bit. That's how you get the spaghetti right.

Speaker 1: 23:40

Yeah, exactly, I like the fact that your stuff is made in the USA, because technicians don't necessarily think about this, but I guarantee estimators do. Sometimes you'll get RFPs, requests for proposals or requests for quotes and somewhere in that verbiage you'll say that a certain percentage has to be products made in the USA. Government loves doing that, the government loves doing that, and I agree with that too. I mean especially from the government. If you're going to be spending my tax dollars, keep American tax dollars working. I agree with that 100%. So, yeah, there's that advantage there that you guys have. There's a lot of people that do manufacturer stuff offshore and it doesn't mean it doesn't mean it's less quality, just there's. You know you're not going to get that advantage of you know made in the USA and your and your contract.

Speaker 2: 24:25

And I'll give you another one where a customer came back and said hey, some of your product is not working, send it back. Once they said that we sent them replacements right away. We had them in stock away, we had them in stock. That's what we do. We get them out. So that happens. We get it in, like I told you, we clean it and there's nothing wrong. So we send now cleaners with all of our products so that that alleviates any of the problem. But the thing is is if you have a big job and you buy it offshore and you bring in that job and there's a problem with one or two things, now you're waiting, and especially if it isn't standard. So if you keep things with an open standard, like you could use different manufacturers with our product and it doesn't hurt my feelings whatsoever if companies do, it's what's in their best interest in how we could help them long term.

Speaker 4: 25:15

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Speaker 1: 26:11

You mentioned earlier about running over bend-insensitive fiber with a tank right. Bend-insensitive fiber, high-density fiber connectors those are all advanced technologies in our industry. How are they changing the way that we approach fiber optic connectivity projects?

Speaker 2: 26:33

People aren't as scared of fiber as they used to be. You know, when you mentioned fiber to some people it was always like ooh, star Wars. Now it's like, you know, they'll just take it, rip it out, plug it in. They know that they could be, they don't have to be as delicate with it. I've always preached before you know it's glass, treat it like glass, right. And now it's okay. We know that this stuff can survive a lot of different conditions that we weren't expecting. For instance, we did an outside plant implementation where there was a manhole full of water and we sold it to the customer and they said the caps came off and we were pulling it through the manhole and the MTP got submerged in water. And is it going to work? And I said, good question. I said clean it and see what happens. They cleaned it, plugged it in. Everything lit up. So you know, the fiber is making things a lot easier, especially having this. You know, newer technologies the right newer technologies does make your life easier and the implementations a lot easier as well too.

Speaker 1: 27:54

Yeah, I've noticed that in our industry over the last probably 10, 12 years, a lot of companies what they would typically would do is they would have a copper crew and then they would have like a fiber crew. Yeah, right, and now because, just for the reasons you said, because copper, because fiber is becoming so easy, they're doing a lot of cross training and you're seeing a lot of guys that can do both copper and fiber, right, and that's, I think it's. I think it's great. I mean because the more people can do it, the better, right, really. So let's look at this from an estimator's perspective. Let's talk about some cost considerations. What are some of the most significant cost factors that an estimator is going to have to consider when they're planning out a fiber optic installation?

Speaker 2: 28:33

Okay. So one of the biggest ones always is you have materials and labor right. So, being in the data center, I've always been a huge fan of plug and play. A lot of guys love sitting there, splicing, splicing, splicing. And again, there's areas when you can't do plug and play and it has to be spliced.

Speaker 2: 28:58

I get it. There's areas when you can't do plug and play and it has to be spliced. I get it. But you know, going with that material over splicing the material is going to be probably 20% to 30% more money. Labor costs. You're still pulling the fiber and now you're just plugging it in instead of splicing. Everything being pre-terminated, pre-tested, pre-labeled makes it go a lot quicker. So you figure out, coming down with how many connections you may have, where the benefits lie. Does it make sense to do splicing in this instance or does it make sense to do plug-and-play in the next instance? And usually plug-and-play is a little bit more expensive but the labor is a lot less and it takes a little bit more planning too.

Speaker 2: 29:43

I've had issues where customers are saying hey, I ordered a 2,800 foot MTP assembly and I needed 2,100 feet. Now I have to lose 700 feet. The one saving grace sometimes is now we use a ton of microfiber. So microfiber is another advancement that allows you to hide that extra slack. But it comes down to rack elevations. Knowing what your length is, you pad it. You have a standard of what your loops have to be on either side and that's where it goes. So it's it's again. Proper planning measurement can save you. Save you a dollar as well.

Speaker 1: 30:26

Yeah, when I was an estimator, I would always. I would always measure three times when I'm using pre-terminated fiber out the gate or plug and play stuff, because I would rather be 20 feet too long than two inches too short. Because you can always do another loop in the slack box, that's easy. Yeah right, that's easy. But you can't get out the cable stretcher, that's what.

Speaker 2: 30:51

I was going to say I can't find them. I don't know where they are, but I can't find a cable stretcher anywhere. Yeah, exactly, exactly.

Speaker 1: 30:57

Well, it's in the back of the truck sitting right next to the. They are, but I can't find a cable stretcher anywhere. Yeah, exactly, exactly, it's well, it's in the back of the truck, sitting right next to the left-handed screwdriver and the bucket of dial tubs. Yeah, yeah, yeah, they're all in the same bin. You gotta, you gotta, open up and look in the bin to find it. That's right, that's the thing.

Speaker 1: 31:15

And here's another advantage too, of using plug and play stuff. It's an entry point, because a lot of my listeners in my audiences are people who were technicians or project managers and they decided to take a leap and have their own communications company, start their own company pulling that stuff. Or they might be doing fire alarm and security and they want to start doing structure cabling, but they may not know fiber that well. This makes it real easy to start doing fiber work without necessarily having to have somebody who's a Bixie-certified fiber person or an FOT fiber person, because it comes from the fact you're pre-terminated, pre-tested. You just clean it, plug and play and rock on, and then you can learn the skill sets and get the certifications and letters. So it allows you to compete in areas that you normally wouldn't compete in which is good for a small business. You don't want to put all your apples in one basket because you know something can happen and that could cause problems.

Speaker 2: 32:15

So those are absolutely important and also, you know the customer in a data center usually it's less than 1% of the company is allowed in the data center, right, I mean, they don't allow their whole company in the data center. So if you have an outside contractor or integrator in your data center, they're a trusted partner, but you don't want them hanging around in your data center. You want them to get in and out and move on to the next job, and that's what it allows you to do as well too. So that's why we took on doing the kitting aspect of things too.

Speaker 1: 32:45

Yeah, I love the idea of kitting aspects. I've done pre-terminated fiber trunk assemblies and stuff like that before, but never in the kitted form, and I could see a huge value add there as a contractor. Let's be honest, some cable guys out there, they literally type with two fingers on their computer. I get it. I truly get it, because we're used to terminating and pulling cables and stuff like that. If you can make it easy, that's a huge value add. I mentioned just a minute ago. I mentioned the CFOT, the Certified Fireiber Optic Technician, the Bixie Fiber Optic Class and stuff. How important do you feel it is that installers or maybe even project managers obtain certifications in fiber optics?

Speaker 2: 33:32

I'm a big proponent of it. I'm a big proponent of all certifications, as a matter of fact, fiber certifications. I've had different teachers come in here and teach the locals that we have here working in our factory and it's huge, it just it gives you that extra notch in your belt to be able to say, hey, I can do this. Or, if there's an issue that comes up, hey, I was trained in this, I have a certification in this, this is what I can do to get the job done. Huge proponent. And again, I was part of the X generation where we went to college, I was on an eight-year plan and managed to get a bachelor's degree. So, uh, you know, uh, so I, I like the the things now where you know, uh, you know, the younger generation coming up can get these certifications and just move right into a position. Right, you know.

Speaker 1: 34:31

Yeah, I agree with you. I don't I don't say this very often, but I also have college degrees too. But um and I, but I only got them because the company I was working for at the time the positions above me that I wanted to obtain required college degrees. But I'm more proud of my RCDD and my Bixie Tech certification than I am of my degree, so I don't put it out there, but it's. You know? Hey, check my LinkedIn profile, you'll see it. It's there, I don't hide it, but it is what it is. So I mentioned two of them, right, the FOA, cfot and the Bixie fiber one. Are you aware of any other people that do fiber certification?

Speaker 2: 35:15

I've been just hanging with the FOA people. That's who I hang with now. You probably know them, you probably interviewed them, and they're great people. I call one of them the Georgia Peach Great guy and you know, I highly recommend him. You're talking about Lee? Yes, sir.

Speaker 1: 35:35

Oh, yeah, lee's a great guy. He's been on the show multiple times. Lee Renfro, he's a great guy. He's been on the show multiple times. Sure, lee Renfro, yeah, he's a great guy. And I do love the FOA program. Yeah, I think the FOA program is a fantastic program and I think the Bixby program is a fantastic program.

Speaker 1: 35:49

They got slightly different objectives and slightly different curriculums, yeah, but I think the end result is, if you have either one of those certifications, it's going to do you well, and technicians don't like taking tests, so some of them are very hesitant to getting those certifications. I get it because you know I never did well in school either. But you know, if you have that certification, it's going to tell future potential employers your values more and you might be able to make more money. You might be able to win more work if an employer hires you and you've got those certifications too. So very cool, mark, what a great, great, great show man. I appreciate you coming on today. And any final statement where somebody wants to get in touch with you how can I get in touch with you? They?

Speaker 2: 36:32

could just give us a call on a regular number 508-528-1520. There's always somebody picking up the phone. We also you can get a hold of us at sales at C-E-Com, c-o-m-m Inc. I-n-ccom. So sales at C-E-Com Inc. Dot com. And I really I appreciate coming on here and you having me just to let you know that the glare from the lights didn't bother me one bit. The glare from what lights? There's a little shine on the top of your head there oh, I get it, he's got mad jokes.

Speaker 1: 37:18

He's got mad jokes, he's got mad jokes. I got you. Yeah, people don't. My wife doesn't understand that. That's what men do. We pick on each other, it's all good. It's all good. I didn't take offense to that. It took me a second to realize what you're doing. You're very comfortable.

Speaker 2: 37:36

I'm very comfortable with you, Chuck, and I appreciate all that you do for our industry.

Speaker 1: 37:42

Thank you, I appreciate that. I appreciate you.

Speaker 3: 37:45

That's it for this episode of today's podcast. We hope you were able to learn something. Make sure to subscribe so you don't miss out on future content. Also, leave a rating so we can help even more people learn about telecommunications. Until next time, be safe.