Understanding the Global Landscape of Power Over Ethernet Advancements

Unlock the secrets of Power over Ethernet with our distinguished panelists, Paul Weintraub, Kim Johnson, and Miguel Angel Ochoa, in an episode that promises to dispel the haze surrounding PoE technology. We confront the myths head-on: does PoE's reach really end at 100 meters, and are specialized cables a must-have? As we navigate the nuances of using various category cables and the art of heat management through bundle sizes.   Experience an eye-opening discussion about PoE's role in cost-effectiveness and functionality across the globe.

Feel the pulse of innovation as we examine the remarkable net-zero energy Hotel Marcel and its pioneering use of PoE for lighting and automation, a testament to the fusion of environmental consciousness and technological advancements. Our guests share their wealth of knowledge on installation efficiencies, while safety concerns about PoE are methodically deconstructed, showcasing the technology's benign nature. This episode is an invitation to visualize a future where our buildings are not just structures but dynamic ecosystems of green energy and cutting-edge technology shaping our world.

Join us on a global tour as we dissect the growth of PoE technology, from the intricacies of design to the installation challenges faced in various regions. Miguel Angel brings stories from Latin America, highlighting the designer's and installer's responsibility for system reliability. Kim Johnson weighs in on the burgeoning PoE market and the winds of change swept by green energy policies. We peel back the layers on international standards, innovations yet to come, and how different markets are embracing PoE technology. Tune in for a thought-provoking journey through the transformative impact PoE holds for the ICT industry worldwide.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Hey Wire Monkeys, welcome to another episode of let's Talk Cabling. This episode we're diving into PoE. Welcome to the show where we tackle the tough questions submitted by installers, apprentices, technicians, project managers, estimators, customers, everybody. We are connecting at the human level so that we can connect the world. If you're watching this show on YouTube, would you mind hitting the subscribe button and that bell button to be notified when new content is being produced? If you are listening to us on one of the audio podcast platforms, please, please, please, leave me a five-star rating and if you can't give me a five-star rating, shoot me a message. Tell me what I have to do to make this a five-star rated show. Those simple little steps helps me take on the algorithm which helps me educate, encourage and enrich the lives of people in the ICT industry.

Speaker 1: 1:03

Thursday night, 6 pm, eastern Standard Time. What are you doing? You know I do a live stream right where you get to ask your favorite RCDD and you know that's me, don't even try to pretend I'm not your favorite RCDD Questions about installation, design, certification, project management, estimation, even career path questions. But I can hear you now. But, Chuck, I'm driving my truck at Thursday night at 7 and 6 pm. I don't want to get into an accident. Relax, I record them and you can watch the recorded version as well, so you still get to see the show. And finally, while this show is free and it will always remain free if you would like to support this show, would you click on that QR code right there? That QR code right there? You can send me a cup of coffee. You can even schedule a 15-minute one-on-one call with me after hours, of course, and we're always looking for corporate vendors as well, for sponsors. Just remember, this is a vendor-neutral platform.

Speaker 1: 1:54

So, as I said, this episode we're talking PoE. We're going to talk about some clear-ups and things that a lot of people get asked about. That is not quite so clear. Can you exceed 100 meters? Is POE used for other things? What's the future of POE? Is POE even being done outside the US? Well, those are lots of questions and while I could answer maybe some of them, I can't answer all of them, and you know me. I got lots of friends, so I brought in an expert panel on POE and let's get this going. Welcome everybody. How are you guys doing? Welcome to the podcast.

Speaker 2: 2:28

Thank you for having us.

Speaker 1: 2:29

Thank you Excellent. So let's just do a round, robin, tell us who you are, paul, we'll start off with you.

Speaker 3: 2:36

Hello, I'm Paul Weintraub. I head up the International Business Unit for Superior Essex Communications and I've been around the industry for more than 25 years and really get involved in talking about PoE, some of the uses where PoE is going installed and one of the things you mentioned earlier, chuck, is PoE being used outside of the US, and I can definitely affirm that it is.

Speaker 1: 3:02

Nice Kim.

Speaker 2: 3:04

Yes, thank you, chuck, for having me again. It's good to be back. I'm Kim Johnson. I'm the Chief Marketing Officer at MHT Technologies. We do smart building technology, which includes POE lighting technology with the software and hardware components to make it happen, and I just finished up my term as the first president of the Pee Wee Consortium in February. So I'm excited to continue to see that group grow, and certainly it wouldn't be a podcast with me if I didn't give the Pee Wee Consortium a shout out and recommend you check them out too.

Speaker 1: 3:38

Absolutely.

Speaker 4: 3:39

Miguel, hi Hi Chuck, hello Hello Paul, hello Kim. Well, thank you for having me again. I'm Miguel Angel Ochoa. I'm a CEO from IT Terra. We are an ICT integrator in four countries in Latin America. I'm a big CRTDD and I have experience in designing and project management about telecommunication and integration of smart buildings. So well, thank you. Thank you for having me.

Speaker 1: 4:14

Not a problem, I'm in great company. That's why I said it's. You know, my dad always used to say it's not about what you know, it's about who you know. And so I know lots of people and I brought in the best and, like I said, PoE. For the average field installer, they generally think PoE is just the cable going to that wireless access point right, or PoE going to a camera. Poe is a lot more involved than that. There's a lot more stuff going on. That's why I wanted to have this show to talk about all the different things can run over PoE and, guess what, there's other countries using it as well. So, Paul, we'll start off with you. Does PoE need a special type of UTP cable?

Speaker 3: 4:53

Well, that's a very good question, chuck PoE. In essence, by the standard it was designed around, it was designed around using Category 5 cable when it originally came out. Now that's evolved to where you can use Category 5E, 6, 6a, even Cat 7 cables, and so the essence is you've got power over Ethernet, so you've got two components you've got power and you have the Ethernet signal. So that's why we're using category cables to run PoE, so they're not really a special cable that needs to be used. You can use a category cable but you have to factor in some of the things that PoE may add, like to your bundle size for the cables, for heat dissipation and other factors when running POE over the cable. I hope that answers that question.

Speaker 1: 5:48

Yeah, it did. You and I had a real interesting conversation before I hit the record button. I really should hit record button as soon as I get on so that way I can capture those really cool conversations. But we were talking about Cat3 Cable, right, and I kind of mentioned, well, you know, cat3 Cable has kind of like disappeared. But you, working for a cable manufacturer, said, well, wait a minute, chuck, I'm still selling Cat3 Cable, but in places like you know, saudi Arabia and some other places like that as well. So I had no idea. I didn't think they made Cat3 Cable anymore. But my question is Cat3 Cable is 24 gauge, just like Cat5e is. If somebody's got a small network that's maybe 100 megabit, could they really maybe push PoE over Cat 3 cable Technically?

Speaker 3: 6:31

yeah, technically you could push the power part. I'm not so sure about the signal 100 megabit. Cat 3 was not designed for 100 megabit signal so it was more designed around 10 megabit. So you might be able to get 10 megabit with power and I'd be concerned with the 24 AWG size conductor on how far it will really go.

Speaker 1: 6:55

Gotcha, gotcha, good question. I have a tendency to think of questions as I'm going along. I forgot to forewarn you. Well, kim and Miguel should know that, because they've already been on the show before, I tend to think of questions off the top of my head. So, kim, this question is for you. What kind of systems can can somebody control with a POE lighting platform?

Speaker 2: 7:14

So you can control the ones that probably come to mind already, Right? So you already have security cameras, you already have your VoIP phones. Those are all going to be powered already with PoE devices. And then it's just a matter of what you know. Do you want to take things that are already being powered with PoE and also connect them to your PoE software through the data transmission side of what these cables can do? So you know that often is an integration you can consider and you can talk about.

Speaker 2: 7:44

But when I look at the projects we're doing, there's obviously POE lighting. It makes a lot of sense. Leds have made it really possible to do almost any type of lighting design that you want in a space, so you're not limited anymore. And then the next thing that made sense was adding sensors, not just occupancy yes, no motion but getting more granular in the sensing of who and what and the activity in a space. And then you move into. Well, obviously, if you're already in the ceiling, you can go over and connect and power the shading systems. So that's increasingly something that we see as well.

Speaker 2: 8:25

It's very rare today for us, at least at MHT Technologies, to see a project where we have PUE lighting and we don't have shading and sensors. And sensors can be humidity, temperature sensing, they can be all those environmental sensors. They can actually do people counting and you can set up automations based on people. They can do light, lux levels so you can start to get into changing your lighting, your shading, your room, your environment, based on the light levels that are there for maybe the natural lighting world. So if you imagine what sun days and cloudy days can do to a space, so I would say really you're getting to the point where, if it's something that consumes electricity, it is something that can become an IoT device, either through a software application, if it's not at the power requirements to be powered by PoE, but it can be connected to your PoE solution in a building. The only limitation today is just stuff that hasn't been done before. So you're getting into some really interesting unique use cases that are pushing the boundaries of what PoE can do, and that's pretty exciting.

Speaker 1: 9:43

It is, and that's one of the reasons I wanted to have this show is because, like I said, a lot of field techs are pigeonholed into thinking. Poe is just those basic things and I only learned about those other systems from me interacting with.

Speaker 1: 9:54

here's another plug the PoE Consortium right Very good and as I started looking we're doing that over POE, we're doing this over POE I was like there's way more to this than out there and for those who are installers in the field or people who may be running small companies, that's a huge opportunity for more work, to get paid, more money to do different things, because a good contractor, you don't want to do just one thing, because if that part of the industry slows down then you're kind of stuck right. So if you do multiple things like PoE and structured cabling and maybe like AV, you're kind of insulating yourself against industry downturns, right.

Speaker 1: 10:32

So let me ask you a question, since you're my international guest right Is PoE well-received outside of the US, specifically in your market, which is going to be Latin America?

Speaker 4: 10:44

Yes, actually it does. I mean we have seen PoE applications since years ago. You know we started with the voice-over IP technology and then with the access point, now with security applications and now with other like trending technologies such as a POE, lighting, for example, applications for small buildings. So I think our POE is gaining, gaining terrain over cross I mean mean worldwide. Okay, so it is well received.

Speaker 4: 11:21

We have customers who have been using the I mean the regular systems, you know telephony and wireless wireless access point but now they are seeing that there is so much extra I mean you can take the like the, the extra use from the UTP cables, right, and then you are taking all these advantages and that is making them to reduce their new infrastructure cost.

Speaker 4: 11:56

You know, because they're taking this advantage. And actually I wanted to add about your questions about the Cat3. Right now, I mean maybe nobody has 10 megabits devices anymore. So if you're thinking about installing a new project with Cat3 cable, that maybe will cost you more in the future, so, um, you, if you already have a project, uh, and you want to do a retrofit, you might keep using these cables. But you know you're going to be limited because maybe you're not using the whole poe magic. You know combining the power plus the data in the same cable and you're maybe you're not using the whole POE magic. You know combining the power plus the data in the same cable and maybe you're just using it for powering. It has the same, you know the same wire gauge, and you know I wouldn't recommend it. Okay.

Speaker 1: 12:52

Yeah, no, I agree with you 100%. And the only reason the Cat 3 question even came up is because our pre-show conversation we were having and that just spurred me to thinking hey know, it's just 24 gauge conductors, we're just running power. That's why I was like, that's why I need to ask that question. You know, if anybody's putting any new system, if you want to follow the standards, the standards are going to say minimum cat 5e cable. For that very reason, right? So yeah, absolutely, and maybe maybe you can answer this and this is an unscripted question, I'm going to see what you do from shooting from the hip In a general sense, because you said that your superior, essex, is selling Cat 3 and Cat 5E Generally. How do those two prices compare to each other? Is Cat 3 more expensive or less expensive than 5E right now?

Speaker 3: 13:36

So I'd say Cat 3 is still less expensive than 5e. Most of what we're selling when we're getting into the cat 3 we're selling legacy outside plant. Uh, multi-pair cat 3 caves. So that's where it now. I did have a sale not that long ago where somebody was looking for two pair because they were actually using Cat3 to connect a legacy phone system. But other than that, you know, it's not something we see a whole lot of, just a few legacy applications out there.

Speaker 1: 14:12

Yeah, that makes perfect sense when you're outside of plant cable because you know outside of plant cable you're typically just running POTS, plain old telephone service, and that doesn't make that doesn't take a whole bunch of bandwidth. So, yeah, that makes sense. So let me ask you another question about with the POE lighting applications right, so we're limited to that. 100 meters, 328 feet. For those people in the US who can't do math, one meter is 3.28 feet. 100 meters times 3.28 is 328 feet. It's pretty simple, but we're limited at 328 feet. But sometimes if you've got maybe like outdoor fixtures or maybe if you have, you know you've got like a law office where you walk into the lobby and the lobby is actually like two floors up but you've got to go, you know, all the way up and over back. They might exceed that 100 meters. Is Peewee limited to that 100-meter mark? Is PUE limited to that?

Speaker 3: 15:01

100-meter mark. So let's look at the industry as a whole when things become a standard right. Most of the time standards lag the entrepreneurship and the development side. So the reason why the 100-meter standard was developed, because it had to deal with ethernet data transmission and signal losses and degradation over time. Now we were talking when it originally was developed around a 24 AWG cable and then, you know, 6 and 6A started using a 23 AWG cable and of course, the larger the gauge of the conductor, the lower the resistance. So essentially, you get better signal and you can perform beyond that 100 meters.

Speaker 3: 15:47

Now there are some cables in the market today that are used for Ethernet applications that have a 22-gauge conductor and again, when you increase the size of the conductor, the electrical performances change. Now what we've been able to see and this is over, I'd say, the past two to three years is that there are more and more manufacturers that are coming out with their own extended distance solution. So when I say there is no standard beyond 100 meters, there are products on the market today that will give you the same electrical performance at some point beyond the 100 meters. That would be equal to what the 100 meter standard expectations are or what the 100 meter standard would require. So you can go 120, 140, 160 meters and that cable will give you the electrical reading at that distance, the same as if it were at 100 meters. So there are systems that are working today.

Speaker 1: 16:53

So let me ask you this question and let me know if you don't know the answer to this, because this is another one off the cuff. So you say we can't go past 100 meters for certain situations. Again, I agree that the standards were written. So the cable plant you install today that will work with 99% of the stuff that you run into. There's always going to be an exception to the rule, always going to be. Is there a point at some point? And again, you probably know better than me that they'd have to calculate voltage drop for PoE if they're going past that 100 meters.

Speaker 3: 17:25

So yes, essentially you'd have to calculate the voltage drop and PoE says if I inject 90 watts at the source at the 100 meter distance, I should receive 71.3 watts, and that's per the standard. So essentially, if you have a larger gauge cable and you're getting 71.3 watts at an extended distance, you're still receiving enough power to power the device. And now, depending on what bandwidth is required for that particular device hence, let's say, poe lighting system that requires almost no bandwidth technically, as long as you have the wattage there to support the devices and enough signal to be able to tell it to turn on or turn off, which is minimal bandwidth, then the device will function.

Speaker 1: 18:22

So Kim had mentioned like light shading and some other stuff. Does that take the same UTP cable or is that a different type of cable?

Speaker 2: 18:30

It should all be the same type of cable in a solution. I don't see many projects where we mix types of cables when it comes to actually powering and controlling the end devices that are connected.

Speaker 1: 18:42

So I got another follow-up question for you, kim, so the low voltage. You already mentioned a couple of them. What about TVs and refrigerators and stuff like that? Could those potentially become? Because we all know the Sinclair, they're doing hair dryers Not that I would ever use a hair dryer, but you can use hair dryers over PoE. What about fridges and TVs?

Speaker 2: 19:04

Yes, so, honestly, if it runs on electricity I would say it's fair game. So it doesn't mean it's going to happen right away or soon. There's some big power consumers in the typical home, especially the commercial environment. When we're talking commercial kitchens, commercial laundry in the case of hotels, those are going to be things that are we talking going to be powered and controlled by PU in the near future? Probably not, but if they can be electrified they can be put onto the same green energy grid. So they're still going to be a part of the trend towards a low voltage general, low voltage building, voltage general, low voltage building.

Speaker 2: 19:52

There's interesting things I don't want to get into it right now regarding, like class four and other types of low voltage power delivery. Poe is always going to be the best solution for some of those end devices in the ceiling, that last, sometimes even the last mile, where you really need to branch out from the power source in your building to connect a lot of low voltage, low power consuming devices. So it's sort of a different thing. I don't think you're going to be able to plug a commercial laundry unit with a PoE device to actually power it, but you can definitely get everything to talk together you can use the same backbone as software running on PoE. That really makes that. You know the PoE lighting component unique Software has API integration. So I think you're actually going to see holistic building management come before, potentially like a true, like PoE low voltage, a hundred percent in that area.

Speaker 2: 20:49

But with the Sinclair Hotel, with other people, with the push towards electrifying the grid, I think the potential is there. I wouldn't actually take anything off the table, as crazy as that might sound. I think we're only limited by what we can imagine and what we have the guts and desire to do and, frankly, some of it will be market pricing and the availability of actually selling these components and units. But there's the green energy movements here to stay. The electrification is going to be here to stay and I think that positions anything that's in the low-voltage industry, because you've got the DC microgrid conversation that's getting really hot right now. All of that's going to be fair game.

Speaker 2: 21:37

So I say yeah, if you can do it with a hairdryer, by the way, if you can do a hotel like Hotel Marcel that's all electrified, that includes their kitchen and their laundry, from what I've understood, from what they've written about, you are going to see some pretty amazing things and in the end it's really, if you can't technically connect it and plug it in with a POE table, you can still connect it to that software that's controlling it. So there's no. You're going to get to the point where there's no reason to have six different building operation systems. You're going to be down to maybe three and then two, and I really think the goal is someday to have that one application to manage your entire building.

Speaker 1: 22:16

So I've never heard the name Marcel. Is that another hotel in addition to the Sinclair?

Speaker 2: 22:28

Yes, that's a very green energy hotel. It's in Connecticut. I'm not an expert on it, but I'd say, if someone's really interested, it's a very interesting case study of what can happen when there is an architect, owner, developer who has a vision, and the vision was that sustainability component. So technically, using their solar panels over the parking lot and on the ceiling of the hotel, they can generate the amount of energy that hotel consumes in New York and Connecticut. It's seasonal, so there's times they're sending energy back to the grid and they're taking energy from the grid, but that means they're actually. I think they're one of the first or the first net zero hotel, truly net zero hotel in the United States.

Speaker 1: 23:02

Is that case? Study online somewhere?

Speaker 2: 23:05

Yeah, you just need to type in Hotel Marcel If you need to get more specific. It's in New Haven, connecticut.

Speaker 1: 23:12

Okay, cool, I'll make sure I'll put the link down below because, like I said, I'd never heard that before, so I wasn't going to ask you specifics about it, because that wasn't one of our questions, that we covered and we don't need to get into it.

Speaker 2: 23:27

I'm not, you know they're very is a big component of how the little things happen.

Speaker 1: 23:31

Right, miguel, question for you. What are some of the benefits to use the same cable from your regular data cabling for other integrations such as PoE lighting or automation?

Speaker 4: 23:44

Well, I think it's pretty much about the installation time and the cost of the installation. I mean, in our own cases we've been running just UTP for access point in big warehouses and it's, you know, faster and it's easier and you actually you have the same low-voltage technician to do it. You don't need to install an extra power wiring or the distribution system for the extra power in the remote devices. So I think it's pretty much about time and cost.

Speaker 1: 24:32

Those are actually great points, because customers always tell you they don't necessarily want the best install, but it always boils down to price every single time, Every single time, right. So, Paul, let me ask you a question Is PoE, especially when you get to the 90-watt stuff, is it safe? I mean because there's a lot of talk right now about, in some areas of the country, making the POE stuff fall under the electricians instead of the low-voltage stuff. I don't know if that's politically driven people trying to protect their work for their unions or if there is indeed a safety concern. So you tell me, is PoE safe?

Speaker 3: 25:15

Yes, poe is safe safe to the human touch. Matter of fact, one of the demos that I do and I've done this before using MHT's PoE lighting is I'll actually hook up the light to the switch. There's up to 90 watts of power there. I'll unscrew the light bulb and I'll stick my finger in the socket and show that it is. Poe is safe to the human touch and it's amazing, when you first show that one, how many people have that reaction that they just they instantly jump back.

Speaker 3: 25:55

But no, poe is based on human safety, right? It's one of the things. You will not get an electrical shock from it because it uses very low current. Now, when you do run PoE, some of the things that you do need to look out for is do some extra calculations as far as your bundle size and the heat, based on what you're actually going to be running over it. And you want to make sure that your devices your switches, injectors, any power devices they're rated and tested for the power levels required to prevent overheating or damage right. So you need to use the appropriate cables, the appropriate systems that are designed for POE systems. So as long as you do that, most any kind of problems can be easily mitigated in the design phase. I would say Miguel Angel has installed several POE systems in places like Panama and Colombia and I'm sure he can talk about what he considers or factors in when he does the actual design before doing the installation.

Speaker 1: 27:03

You want to expand on that, miguel?

Speaker 4: 27:04

Yeah, yes, indeed. Well, there's certain considerations you need to take when designing and installing these PoE systems. For example, as I said, the cabling bundles are you know you can't exceed the 24 cables inside just one bundle and also the trays or the if you're using plastic or metallic tubing. You need to take that in consideration. It is important and it's also important to take consideration about distance, because, as early questions, we were talking about exceeding the 100 meters, and it is also important to not just to pull that long cables out there, cables, dead-down cables out there. You need to design it well because it is a matter of how this system will be stable, reliable in the future. For example, if you have this IP phone, it is an emergency phone and it has an emergency phone and it has like an intermittent connection. I mean you need to also be responsible as a designer and as an installer. Okay, to have this well-designed system and take all the heat and the distance consideration for these cables, okay.

Speaker 1: 28:50

Excellent answer. That's why you're the best. You are absolutely the best. So so, kim, you're my marketing guru, right? Thank you, not a problem. And so let me ask you this when do you see the POA market going both inside and outside the US?

Speaker 2: 29:08

Inside the US it is. I believe we're seeing a lot of momentum. When I was speaking with Huey Consortium members this past February, it sounds like a lot of projects are happening with a lot of members, momentum's taking off, adoptions happening more in more geographically dispersed areas of the United States. You know my company is based out of New York. We see a lot of activity in New York. If you can do it in New York with the regulations and what they've got there, you can frankly do it everywhere. But you know we're starting to see it along basically all the coasts and starting to see projects in every metro area, I think. I think it's really, you know, for all this talk of when is it going to take off, it's taking off. So we're seeing it in the United States taking off. That is a market I'm most personally familiar with. I keep an eye on the global market so. But what I'll offer you from a global perspective is going to be a little more opinionated.

Speaker 2: 30:03

I think the globally, you know there's different pressures than in the US. We do have some increased subsidies and tax benefits now for green energy and the green transition and POE is getting swept along in that. So that is helping with the momentum. But there are other parts of the world that have been further ahead and pushing for stricter environmental and sustainability elements sooner. So we're seeing a lot more activity in Europe, sustainability elements sooner. So we're seeing a lot more activity in Europe. I think, from anecdotally, what I'm hearing is I'm seeing a little more blended activities. So there are protocols out there like DALI, class 4, there's other types of low voltage infrastructure that's getting played with, I think more internationally. But POLE is the tried and true. It's a universal standard and when we talk to international companies, if they're going to start adopting PLE for headquarters in the US, they're already thinking, looking for adopting that technology internationally. So I think that the international components of what is the standardization of it is really going to be an asset.

Speaker 2: 31:13

I think you could see some really interesting innovation internationally and there's parts of the world that are developing rapidly. There's a lot of building going on and they're looking to skip some of the old mistakes that we had in the US over the decades. Right as we've been innovating, there's no reason today that countries that are rapidly developing should adopt some of that old, less efficient design, less efficient devices running on coal or gas power when they can go electrify it from the stars, and so I think it's that leapfrogging element of skipping into something more energy efficient, that's attractive and everyone's connected. So the connectedness of the iot device world is hugely appealing as well. That's a big selling point internationally.

Speaker 2: 32:04

So that that's my opinion. I think it's been. It's been interesting to keep an eye on it. Covid really threw a lot of things up in the air, accelerated it in some areas in terms of it, in terms of the adoption of Keeley, slowed it down in others. So I think we're seeing a normalization, whatever that might be, of the markets when it comes to Keeley adoption. So we're seeing who's really embracing it and who's not the markets when it comes to POE adoption.

Speaker 1: 32:30

So we're seeing who's really embracing it and who's not so in your opinion, and if you don't know, just tell me. You don't know who is normalizing POE faster us or the US, or outside of the US?

Speaker 2: 32:42

Oh, that's totally debatable. I would actually I'm going to, so I don't know, but I always have opinions, so I'll share some opinions and then I think actually Paula Miguel could answer as well. I do think that what's interesting. I live in the Midwest of the United States. Technically, energy is very cheap here, so in the Midwest adoption has been pretty slow. So wherever you've seen energy prices be really high which, once you learn about the Latin American market, for example, energy is actually very expensive in a lot of these countries so there's a big incentive to figure out how to really minimize your energy costs and that's been pushing innovation in a way that I've seen more talk and more interest in food adoption from Latin America than I think someone not familiar with this market would expect. But trace the map, find where energy is really high. You're probably going to find advanced fuel conversations or more advanced installations of it in those markets.

Speaker 1: 33:40

That makes perfect sense, miguel. How do you feel? Because she was my US perspective, you're my outside US perspective. Are you guys ahead of us?

Speaker 4: 33:49

No, no, I don't think so. I mean the trending of using POA is, I think it's worldwide actually, but in certain Latin American countries this specific economy allows you to, you know, to to grow a specific industries. For, for example, mexico and chile are uh, right now, like the, the, the biggest uh country where the smart building industries is developing. I mean you, you see uh, professional associations only talking about smart buildings. I mean there is an industry, a small industry, they are growing. There is an industry, a small industry, they're growing. So there is the need to use this new usage of their regular, their legacy cable system. You know, because, after COVID and the need for faster, more reliable communication, you know, the 5G expansion worldwide is making these specific economies to grow with a certain industry and, for example, poe.

Speaker 4: 35:09

Poe is, I mean, but the industry is trying to get this extra juice from the existing UTP cables, from the new UTP installations, because fiber optics is everywhere, right, so you need to use the UTPs for the newest technologies, for example, poe, lighting, baas, I mean smart building control, okay, or building automation systems. So this industry are taking the extra mile from the UTP industry and you see it also from the manufacturing side. I mean, you see, right now this network switches vendors developing like more PoE++ I mean 90 watts per port new switches. Plus I mean 90 watts per port new switches. Right now you're seeing in almost every manufacturer has its new release about these kind of switches okay. And now they say, like a PoE lightning ready or something like that, okay. And now you also see the UTP manufacturers speaking more about extended distances and maybe class four I mean type four ready, pppoe ready cables. So I think it's growing. It's growing worldwide, okay.

Speaker 1: 36:47

So let me hit you up with that last question, Miguel. Are we really changing the scope from the regular low-voltage checkout in the field now that they're installing electrical devices?

Speaker 4: 36:58

Well, it's like maybe polemic I don't know if you say it in English question, because it depends on how every country is managed. For example, I know that in the US the low voltage technician has some, you know, specific scopes, specific certifications, and it just can't switch to the electrical trade, right. So but, for example, I know that in the US this is, like you know, like a whole other conversation. But in Latin America it's kind of different, because you have also, in certain countries you have a specific certified electrical technicians or certified low voltage technicians, but in most of the countries they are kind of the same, yeah, you know, and actually that is kind of the uh, like a war.

Speaker 4: 38:01

Okay, because when you are installing the structure, cabling, you are frequently you see an electrician putting the cables or you know, or punching the connectors, and it doesn't have the appropriate training to do it. So it is. I mean, I think that these technologies won't replace, like the you know, the major electricians when they have these. You know the panel boards and the electrical design per se, for you know higher consumption, like HDAC or other, you know medium or high voltage systems, but for the, for the low voltage industry, I think, I think we will be having like mixed-scope technicians in the future.

Speaker 1: 38:57

Excellent, excellent, great show. Ladies and gentlemen, I appreciate you guys taking time to come on today. As far as I'm concerned, we're at the ground floor of PoE we really are and there's a lot of stuff coming down the pike. And if anybody's going to be in this industry for 15, 20, 30 years still not me, cause I'm too old, but you know, you might want to start paying attention and learning all the other stuff that we're doing here. So I appreciate everybody coming on today. Thank you.

Speaker 2: 39:23

Thank you so much.

Speaker 3: 39:24

Thanks for having us, chuck. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Speaker 5: 39:29

That's it for this episode of today's podcast. We hope you were able to learn something. Make sure to subscribe so you don't miss out on future content. Also, leave a rating so we can help even more people learn about telecommunications. Until next time, be safe.