Unlock the secrets of fiber optic wizardry with Steve Cowles RCDD from AEM, who joins us to demystify the core principles of Fiber Testing. If you've ever scratched your head trying to make sense of those elusive dB (decibel) measurements, this episode promises to transform confusion into clarity. We'll get down to brass tacks with practical insights on setting accurate loss measurements and the essential warm-up rituals for power sources and light meters. As we walk you through the evolution of fiber testing, from the days of manual grunt work to today's sleek processes, you'll gain not only knowledge but also an appreciation for the craft that keeps our digital world humming.
Feeling intrepid? Venture further with us as we tackle the Optical Time-Domain Reflectometer (OTDR) and its notorious event dead zones. With the right launch cord in hand, you'll learn how to navigate these optical obstacles, ensuring your initial connector checks don't fall prey to blind spots. The conversation gets even techier as we unpack pulse width's role in fiber troubleshooting and why understanding the Index of Refraction (IOR) isn't just for boffins. Whether you're piecing together a network puzzle or fine-tuning your maintenance skills, this episode equips you with the acumen to command the complex realm of fiber optics with confidence.
Knowledge is power! Make sure to stop by the webpage to buy me a cup of coffee or support the show at https://linktr.ee/letstalkcabling . Also if you would like to be a guest on the show or have a topic for discussion send me an email at chuck@letstalkcabling.com
Chuck Bowser RCDD TECH
#CBRCDD #RCDD
Unlock the secrets of fiber optic wizardry with Steve Cowles RCDD from AEM, who joins us to demystify the core principles of Fiber Testing. If you've ever scratched your head trying to make sense of those elusive dB (decibel) measurements, this episode promises to transform confusion into clarity. We'll get down to brass tacks with practical insights on setting accurate loss measurements and the essential warm-up rituals for power sources and light meters. As we walk you through the evolution of fiber testing, from the days of manual grunt work to today's sleek processes, you'll gain not only knowledge but also an appreciation for the craft that keeps our digital world humming.
Feeling intrepid? Venture further with us as we tackle the Optical Time-Domain Reflectometer (OTDR) and its notorious event dead zones. With the right launch cord in hand, you'll learn how to navigate these optical obstacles, ensuring your initial connector checks don't fall prey to blind spots. The conversation gets even techier as we unpack pulse width's role in fiber troubleshooting and why understanding the Index of Refraction (IOR) isn't just for boffins. Whether you're piecing together a network puzzle or fine-tuning your maintenance skills, this episode equips you with the acumen to command the complex realm of fiber optics with confidence.
Knowledge is power! Make sure to stop by the webpage to buy me a cup of coffee or support the show at https://linktr.ee/letstalkcabling . Also if you would like to be a guest on the show or have a topic for discussion send me an email at chuck@letstalkcabling.com
Chuck Bowser RCDD TECH
#CBRCDD #RCDD
Hey Wiremonkeys, welcome to another episode of let's Talk Cabling. This episode we're talking Fiber Testing 101. Welcome to the show where we tackle the tough questions submitted by installers, technicians, project managers, estimators, even customers. We're connecting at the human level so that we can connect the world. If you're watching this show on YouTube, would you mind hitting the subscribe button and that bell button to be notified when new content is being produced? If you're listening to us on one of the audio podcast platforms, would you mind giving us a five-star rating? And if the show is not a five-star rated show, email me and let me know what would make it a five-star show? Those two simple little steps helps us take on the algorithm so we can slay it and get this message out to even more people in the ICT industry.
Speaker 1:Thursday night, 6 pm Eastern Standard Time. What are you doing? You know I do a live stream on TikTok and Instagram and Facebook and LinkedIn and a bunch of other places at 6 pm Eastern Standard Time where you get to ask your favorite RCDD. And you know that's me. Don't even try to pretend like it's anybody else. You know it's me. Your favorite questions on installation, certification, design, project management, even career path questions, but I could hear you now.
Speaker 1:Jack, I'm driving my truck at 6 pm on Thursdays. I don't want to get into it. Relax, I record them and you can catch them at letstalkcablingcom. And finally, while this show is free and will always remain free, if you find value in this content, would you mind clicking on this QR code right there? You can buy me a cup of coffee. You can even schedule a 15-minute one-on-one call with me after hours, of course, and of course we're always looking for corporate sponsorships. So if your company's values are educate, encourage and enrich and you want to help support a vendor-neutral platform to get the message out to more people, get in touch with me. On today's show we're talking FIRA Basics 101.
Speaker 1:I never make the assumption that everybody knows everything about the cable industry that I know or that my guest knows. So from time to time I do these shows where we do 101 type of material right, so that way we can make sure everybody gets caught up, because there are people new to this industry. I met in teaching class. Like I had a guy in the class who literally had two weeks of experience, two weeks, 20 year old, kid and man. I tell you what he had a good head on his shoulders. So we're bringing in a special guest. I returned guest to help us cover some very uh, some very one-on-one fiber optic testing kind of things. Welcome back to the show, mr Steve Kaus from AAM. How are you doing, buddy?
Speaker 3:Thanks, Chuck. It's good to be here Doing great. Hope you are too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. Well, the audience won't see it, but you know it took me what five attempts to get through that intro. That's all right, that's all right.
Speaker 2:So I like your.
Speaker 3:you know the five give me a five-star rating. So does that mean you know two and a half for you and two and a half for me, Right?
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, that's exactly how that works out.
Speaker 2:Well, actually no.
Speaker 1:I think, I think I think it's 60-40. Yeah, I think I think I get more on my platform. Three and two yeah, so so let's just get right into it. We're going to talk about some, some fiber stuff, right? So first one I'll cover is what is a DB?
Speaker 3:Ah, DB, that is decibel, and DB is what we use when we are measuring loss on fiber. It's a, it's a relative thing. You know, since we're talking fiber, dB is going to be a relative power measurement. So you're going to look at, you set a reference, and this will segue into something else, I'm sure. But initially, when you look at a fiber, you're looking at power and dBm and you've got to essentially set a reference. You set a baseline, if you will, and that baseline is expressed in dB. When you set a reference it says zero dB. So once you've done that, then when you take your testers to opposite ends of the fiber and connect, you get another value in dB and that value is the loss along the fiber. Back in the old days we didn't have a DB and a DBM. We just had a power meter that gave us raw power. We wrote that number down and then we took the units to opposite ends of the fiber, wrote the second number down and we did the math.
Speaker 1:Uphill both ways in the snow, in the snow. Yeah, back in our days I was like that's the first thing that went through my mind. I heard my dad we had to walk to school uphill both ways in the snow. I didn't realize it snowed that much then.
Speaker 3:Right. So just to kind of give you, I'm just going to throw some.
Speaker 1:These are obviously not realistic numbers. So the whole purpose you can fire up your power source and light meter and you got to wait for it to stabilize, Right, and I guess every manufacturer that amount of time is going to vary. Check with your manufacturer.
Speaker 3:Yeah, typically it's going to be between five and 10 minutes. Ours is five minutes. There are a couple others that are probably about the same. Some of them out there are 10, but always consult your user manual. Rtm. Read the manual there you go.
Speaker 3:And you know we're guys, we don't read the manual. But yeah, check with your manufacturer, look in the manual. It'll tell you how long you need to warm up. But you want that to stabilize. And then you do that set reference. And another good point, since we're kind of on that topic is that if you disconnect your test reference cord from the transmit port, the light source, after you've done a set reference, you've got to set reference again. If you power your equipment down, it may retain that reference, but it's good practice to set a new reference.
Speaker 1:Absolutely it is. And here's another good tip I want to add on to this, since we're already going down the pro tip range right now If you're a company or you work for a company that has multiple different types of optical loss test sets, know the value for each manufacturer, because you mentioned, yours was five minutes, and there is one out there that I talked to. I had him on the show once, many, many years ago. I can say that because the podcast is four years old. Many years ago he said 15 minutes, 15 minutes. So make sure you understand. You know, hey, if you're using my AEM, that's going to be five minutes. I'm using, you know, brand XYZ. That might be a different value, because if you don't wait the appropriate time, you'll start getting negative DB numbers.
Speaker 3:Well, and this is also assuming you have not left your tester in harsh conditions overnight or all day long, like all day long in the heat in Arizona in the middle of summer, or overnight in you know, juneau, alaska, in the middle of winter.
Speaker 1:That never happens. Technicians always bring their test equipment at night, always, yeah.
Speaker 3:Your equipment may need to warm up a little longer in that case, right?
Speaker 1:Okay, so DB decibel the B is capitalized. And do you know why that B is capitalized? I don't that's a trivia question, what I do not know why.
Speaker 2:You know, I should know that, being a ham radio operator, I should know that.
Speaker 3:Ah, yes.
Speaker 1:Bell, alexander Graham Bell, that's the bell, and I heard a. I read a thing. Actually, I didn't hear. I read a thing once on the internet, so you know that means it's got to be true. I read somewhere on the internet that when Alexander Graham Bell I don't know if it's true or not, but it's on the internet so it's got to be true and that sounds like something they would do. All right, so we know what a decibel is. Now let's talk about what is a dBm.
Speaker 3:Ah. Decibel, milliwatt, decibel hyphen milliwatt. It's a power measurement. That's what we use when we're measuring the absolute power of, say, a light source, a stabilized light source we're using for testing, or of, say, a light source you know stabilized light source we're using for testing. Or if you're measuring the absolute power of a transmitter on the remote end of a fiber, you want to find out how much juice you got coming over the fiber. That is measured in dBm, decibel milliwatts, like a light source power meter. You know your optical loss test set For multi-mode you're looking probably in that negative 18 to negative 22, 23 range is what you'd see.
Speaker 3:Single mode could be plus four to minus four. Typically is what you see. Now when you get into field equipment, the actual stuff that's out there could be a broad range and like telco equipment is going to have a lot more power. Cable TV equipment is going to have a lot more power than what we use in local area networks because it's got to go greater distances. And that number, that DBM number, is important because in fiber optics you've got transmitters and receivers and transceivers are combined and the transmit power can't come into the receiver hotter than the sensitivity of the receiver. So if that power is too high, it blinds the receiver. If it's too low like you got too much loss on the fiber then you're not going to be able to communicate because it's not even going to sense the signal there. So that's where that number comes in.
Speaker 1:So let me make sure I can, because I always want to make sure we try to say this in a way that maybe somebody who has two weeks of experience in the industry might understand. Like the kid, like that 20, I take some of that 20 year old kid right. So he came in and he gave me not, he passed the test, only missed it by one question and he, yeah, I graded his score and then I'd say thank you, congratulations, and then he left. He came back like 10 minutes later because he finished before half most everybody else. He came back 10 minutes later. Hey, can I?
Speaker 1:help you carry out anything 20-year-old kid. Nice People like to say, our industry is, you know these young whippersnappers. I'm telling you, there's some great people out there, there, really are.
Speaker 3:If they're not. Yeah, it's hard to generalize. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yes, there's people.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Right, and you can make them into good ones, most of them into good ones. So just to kind of recap, what the DBM is telling me is if that light is in the sweet spot, like a baseball analogy. Right, it's in the box. If it's outside the box, then it's not useful, but if it's in the box.
Speaker 3:That means home run. Yeah, it's going, it's going, it's going. And, in a nutshell, dbm is the power and DB is your relative number. So you measure your loss in DB and you look at or read power or measure power in DBM, right.
Speaker 1:So let's talk about when you read through fiber testing literature, right, or the owner's manuals, you know the thing that those guys don't ever read what's an event dead zone?
Speaker 3:Ah, now we're talking about OTDR. So event deadzone with an OTDR? The way an OTDR works sends a pulse of light down the fiber. It's looking for reflections coming back and it looks at the backscatter reflection of the fiber itself. The events, mated connectors, splices, all these things create a reflection and every piece of test equipment has what they call an event dead zone. And that event dead zone is once you hit that reflective event, how far can that light travel before you can see another event? So it's like a blind spot. So let's say it's half a meter, for instance. That means if you have a made pair of connectors, once it hits that reflection it can't see another reflective event for another half a meter. And if you get events that are too close, they're within that event dead zone. Sometimes they'll make that one event look like one big event and it stretches that pulse out. So if you've ever seen OTDR pulse, it spikes up for a reflective event. It might make it come up, but it looks weird because it's a much wider event. Or it could do what they call like a stair step, where it comes up and then it chunks down before it continues on. So it's essentially the blind spot of the unit.
Speaker 3:Now, this also is why we use launch cords on OTDRs, because you don't want to connect your fiber under test directly to the interface of your OTDR. If you do that, you can't tell what's going on with that first connector on your fiber under test. You want to use a launch cord. I've got one right here. Ours are 150 meter. So you want to use a launch cord. And what that does? It allows that signal to quiet down over the length of the launch cord.
Speaker 3:And launch cord length is going to be dependent on pulse width. You know how long of fiber you're testing is going to need a longer pulse width. You're going to need a longer launch cord, but the ones we've got 150 for what? The fiber we're testing in the LAN environment, the lengths that we're testing, that's pretty much a sweet spot.
Speaker 3:So what that does you put that launch cord on and then you can actually see that connector when you make that launch cord to the fiber under test, because it's no longer in that dead zone area. And then again, when you hit that next reflective event, that first mated pair, you're going to have a dead zone there. So if it's a half meter, that means within a half a meter. If there's another connector, you will probably not see it. So it's important to understand what that dead zone is, and the rule of thumb is you want to have a launch cord, minimum length launch cord that's twice what the dead zone created by your pulse width would be, and there's a calculation out there for that. I don't remember it off the top of my head, but you can tell by the pulse width what that length will be and you want to double what that.
Speaker 1:I know, if I choose too short of a patch cord that could give me some issues. But would it hurt anything if I use too long of a launch cord?
Speaker 3:No, the only thing with using too long of a launch cord with an OTDR is when you set an OTDR test, you're going to set a max length, you're going to test. Also, Some OTDRs will have an auto sense and they'll say, okay, it's this long, I'm going to set my distance. If your launch cord is really really long and you increase your overall length of the test, including the launch cords, to a level where you've got to then increase your max length, you also may have to adjust your pulse width accordingly. So you know, based on what you're testing, you know 150 to 500 meters is typical for launch cords in our arena. For the most part, 500 is even a bit long for some of the stuff we test, because usually we're not going past three kilometers in the normal environment, although the fiber can go further. But when you get into outside plant it's a whole different ballgame because they're using a much longer pulse width and you've got to have a much longer launch cable in those cases as well.
Speaker 1:So would a technician purchase a launch cable, or would they make their own, or could they make their own?
Speaker 3:I wouldn't recommend making a launch cable in the field. You could, especially if you're using a fusion splicer, I guess. And some people will describe a launch cord as just a long patch cord which kind of it is? You want something that's good quality. You want to have something that's a high-grade fiber. You don't, you know, just like a test reference cord you don't want to use. You know just some old piece of fiber you've had sitting in your warehouse for 15 years. You know you want something quality and in a pinch you could make a launch cord. Now most manufacturers will recommend you use their launch cords because we've tested our OTDR with our launch cords, so we know what to expect. So when you introduce manufacturing your own launch cord, you're adding additional variables.
Speaker 1:I tell people all the time. You know, factory-made stuff is usually better quality and most fiber techs don't like to hear that because they think they're the best. But it's not a reflection of the technician's skills, it's a reflection of the environment and the tools. Right it is. It is when you look at most manufacturers. You know. I'm just going to give you an example the pre-terminated fiber trunking system. I saw a post of this on I think it was Low Voltage Nation's Facebook group, I think.
Speaker 1:This week Somebody's asking about using pre-terminated fiber and should I use it or not use it?
Speaker 1:And the answer is yes and no, right? It kind of really all depends, right? I mean pre-terminated fiber. If you're a company that doesn't do a lot of fiber, so you don't have a lot of skills within the company, pre-terminated fiber is the way to go because they're made in a clean room environment and they use better lapping film and they use 400 power scopes where most fiber techs typically use 100 power scopes, so they're going to be better quality because of all that.
Speaker 1:And that's all that that person does all day long is terminate fiber. You take a regular fiber person. You know how many fibers do they tip a day, if they even do it every day, then that rolls into it as well too. So yeah, I mean I would say you know, stick with the factory-made test reference cord or launch cord for that very fact right there, because you're not going to duplicate that quality in the field and it's, it's not. I'm not saying you're not a good tech, I'm just saying you just don't have the extremely expensive tools and the clean room environment to do that stuff.
Speaker 3:You probably don't have something, an instrument with you in the field to measure optical return loss. And I'm not talking about what we get off the OTDR, I'm talking about a return loss meter to measure that and really for any of your test reference cords and launch cords.
Speaker 1:Those should be tested for that at the factory. Yeah, a lot of preterm refiber trunk assemblies and launch cords a lot of those ends get looked at with an interferometer. And an interferometer is a very expensive piece of equipment and it measures the geometry of the end face in relationship to where the core is and it gives you all kinds of values, tells you if it's within parameters or not, and I've yet to see a technician out in the field that has an interferometer in the back of their truck. Nope, nope, all right, so what's an attenuation dead zone? We talked about event dead zones. What's an attenuation dead zone? We talked about event dead zones.
Speaker 3:What's an attenuation dead zone? It relates more to what you can measure beyond that reflective event and it can affect what you see beyond the event. Now, attenuation dead zone is always going to be longer than your event dead zone. You look at any manufacturer's documentation on their OTDR. Your event dead zone is the shorter of the two ATDR. Your event dead zone is the shorter of the two. And that's because the attenuation dead zone, if I remember correctly, is made up of your pulse width plus your event dead zone. So you take that pulse width, turn that into a distance, add that to your event dead zone and that creates another length. It's a longer length.
Speaker 3:And so let's say your event dead zone is half a meter, your attenuation dead zone is maybe two meters and that means that when you hit that reflective event within two meters, while you might see another reflective event like a meter and a half out, you might not be able to measure the attenuation accurately of that event.
Speaker 3:The other thing is, if that event a meter and a half out is a splice and it's a good splice you may not see the good splice at that point because it's not a reflective event technically. So that's what the attenuation dead zone means and every manufacturer will list these in their documentation They'll have the event dead zone and the attenuation dead zone and they're both important to understand. And this kind of leads into why, in some cases, if you think you have something going on in your fiber, 99% of why we use an OTDR is because we're failing a loss test. We want to find out why and you shoot it and you don't see anything that's contributing. Go to the other end of the fiber and shoot it in the opposite direction. Sometimes, because of that attenuation dead zone, that event dead zone, you will see different events from one end versus the other end.
Speaker 1:That's why we do bidirectional testing.
Speaker 3:Yep.
Speaker 1:And so let me ask you this then so you said the event dead zones and the attenuation dead zones are documented in the owner's manual somewhere. Is that important information for the tech out in the field to look it up and know it?
Speaker 3:They don't necessarily need to know it. Got in the field to look it up and know it. They don't necessarily need to know it. Chances are whoever in their organization purchased that product or specified that they purchased the product, has already looked that up. Because that's one of the things that people will compare between different manufacturers of OTDRs. They'll look at that, say who's got the best attenuation, who's got the best event dead zone, who's got the best dynamic range? They always compare all these specs. Techs in the field don't have to worry too much about that. It may be important to understand if they're doing a troubleshooting situation like that, and this is something I'd say too.
Speaker 3:We do two kinds of optical loss testing. There's dual-ended single direction and dual-ended bi direction. Now when you do your either one, if you're having a loss issue, that loss issue in some cases may show up only traveling one direction on one fiber and that could be a clue for you as to where to go. Look which end to start. If you're going to deploy your OTDR so you can find it, you may not have to do a going to deploy your OTDR so you can find it. You know you may not have to do a bidirectional OTDR you may can just shoot it one direction and find that event. Most times when we have issues like this, it's one end or the other where we're seeing issues with the fiber. So it's you know the OTDR is a really good tool for finding those problems.
Speaker 1:So I already know the answer to this, but I want to hear which is better for documenting the performance of the cable an optical loss test set or an OTDR.
Speaker 3:Optical loss test set hands down.
Speaker 1:And which is better for troubleshooting.
Speaker 3:Well, they both are good for troubleshooting, but if you're having problems figuring out where the loss is coming from, otdr is the way to go there.
Speaker 3:So yeah, and some people go oh, OTDR is more expensive, it's got to be a better instrument. It's. You know, it's giving us all these pretty graphs and all this other stuff, so it's got to be better than just doing a loss test. Well it's, the loss you see in an OTDR trace is not the same loss that you see when you measure loss with a stabilized light source in an optical loss test set. That is much more accurate for performance is using that optical loss test set.
Speaker 1:Well, the OTDR is looking at the IOR index of refraction and it's calculating that loss where the optical loss test sets. Since you've already zeroed out the meter, it knows exactly how much it lost.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the OTDR with the IOR, with the strength of the reflections coming back, it's able to determine pretty accurately what those loss values are on those things. But it's not the end all. It is not acceptable as certification. And I've had that discussion with people who say, oh, I need to certify with my OTDR. Well, if that's all you're using, it's not certification. So it's a great instrument and it can be part of certification. It's a supplement. It's called tier two. When you take an optical loss test set and you add an OTDR trace, that's what Tier 2 is.
Speaker 1:And a lot of times what you'll find is customers, not knowing any better, will spec out Tier 1, I mean, sorry, tier 2 testing in their RFQs request for quotes or RFPs request for proposals. But the manufacturer wants Tier 1 testing for warranty purposes, so you've got to do both tests in that scenario. Now we mentioned IOR. I just want to try to clarify that. That's index over fraction and that's just literally how fast the photon travels down the fiber.
Speaker 3:It's a percentage of one Yep, yep Speed limit, exactly right. It's like MVP and copper.
Speaker 1:So you mentioned pulse width several times short pulse width, long pulse width. Can you tell us what are each of those?
Speaker 3:So the pulse width is the length of that pulse of light that the unit is sending down the glass. For shorter distances you use a narrower pulse width or a shorter pulse width because you don't have to go as far. For the longer distances you're going to have a much longer pulse width. And then, of course, the longer pulse width also affects your dead zones. Your dead zone increases when you have a longer pulse width. For what we do in the local area network arena, in structured cabling and campuses, you know three kilometers or less we're using shorter pulse widths. You know anywhere from five to maybe 50 at the most nanoseconds, but you could be using 2,500 nanoseconds. You could be using a much greater pulse width when you're getting into long-haul fiber.
Speaker 1:So just going to make again, I'm going to break this down for the new people. So if a light source turns on its light for five nanoseconds, well, light travels at 186,282 miles a second and if you really want to, you can do the math and find out exactly how. That'll tell you how long that piece of light is. So if I have a cable, that's giving me some issues when we're talking about, like the event dead zones and attenuation dead zones, would a shorter pulse width be better to troubleshoot that with?
Speaker 3:Yes, and it all depends on the equipment. Now the problem with you if you get the pulse width too short, your OTDR trace can become a little dirty. If you will, you start to see all kinds of things. So it may make it a little more difficult to troubleshoot that way. But generally speaking, using a shorter pulse width is going to help you to find some of those things. Because if you've got a longer pulse width, if your manufacturer rates their pulse width at half a meter, I mean their dead zone at half a meter for an event dead zone, Maybe that half a meter with a 5 nanosecond pulse width but you're using a 20 nanosecond pulse width or 25 nanosecond pulse width.
Speaker 3:Now your dead zone's increased so you may not see that and short patch cords in a link can wreak havoc with that too, because you can't see things after that first event and I've seen people actually will take a launch box it's like a launch cable but it has female connectors on it and what they'll do is they'll use a short patch cord at their OTDR plug into the launch box and then they use a short patch cord or test reference cord to go from the launch box into the panel where the fiber under test is. The problem is you hit that connector where you plug that short cord into on the launch box. That's a big reflection right there and if your patch cord is not long enough, you don't see that first connector on the on the um the panel. So if you're using a launch box, just keep that in mind Um, you're, you're, you're. There is a disadvantage to that versus a launch cord.
Speaker 1:Steve, you're a wealth of information as usual. I appreciate you coming on the show.
Speaker 3:My friend, it's always fun, always fun. I'm going to have to have you on my show again soon too. Name of the day and time. April is special. It's going to be fiber-related coming up and it's going to have a Bixie CEC associated with it this time.
Speaker 1:Nice.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Nice. Well, make sure you let me know that so I can share that out as well too. I've always got people asking me for CEC stuff. I've always got people asking me for CEC stuff. I've got my fire stopping class recognized for CECs. I just submitted another class, like two weeks ago, for CEC recognition. I don't want to say what it is yet until I get the letter saying it's approved. Then I'm speaking at TKW in Nashville and I'm trying to get that one recognized for CECs too, too. So it's all three Cool, the podcast with three CEC classes.
Speaker 3:Nice.
Speaker 1:Yes, we're growing. We're growing. All right, brother man. I appreciate you coming on. Bye, chuck. Good chat with you, take care.
Speaker 2:That's it for this episode of today's podcast. We hope you were able to learn something. Make sure to subscribe so you don't miss out on future content. Also, leave a rating so we can help even more people learn about telecommunications. Until next time, be safe.