15th Edition TDMM Released and Top Ten Estimating Questions

Ever find yourself navigating the complex currents of telecommunications with more questions than answers? Let Chuck Bowser, your trusted RCDD, illuminate the path with his latest podcast episode, "Electrifying Insights with Chuck Bowser: TDMM and RCDD Exam Updates." As we pop open a Zevia root beer together, Chuck dives straight into the heart of the matter, offering a treasure trove of tips for acing the RCDD exam and a detailed look at the new content in the 15th edition of the TDMM. Whether you're entangled in study material or looking for the ins and outs of the latest industry trends, this episode promises to deliver the clarity you've been seeking.

Picture this: you're about to estimate a cabling project, but where do you start? Chuck has got you covered, as he meticulously dissects the top ten questions in the field of estimating cabling project costs. From scrutinizing RFQs and RFPs to predicting material quantities and tackling unexpected cable testing quandaries, Chuck's practical advice ensures your projects remain on target and your budget intact. And when it comes to compliance, let's just say Chuck's insights into adhering to standards will have you navigating this maze like a pro.

As the conversation overflows with enthusiasm, we're reminded that the world of cabling and ICT is more than just wires and numbers; it's a community. Chuck extends an invitation for some real-time interaction – a cup of coffee, a casual chat, or the RCD study group that's shaping up to be as lively as the podcast itself. So if you're looking to bolster your expertise with insights, camaraderie, and a sprinkle of humor, tune in to "Electrifying Insights with Chuck Bowser RCDD," and join the conversation that's connecting minds and building knowledge in the world of cabling.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Thursday night, 6 pm, eastern Standard Time. That can only mean one thing Live after hours with your favorite RCDD, chuck Biles. Rcdd. You know it's me. Don't even try to pretend like it's not me. You know I'm your favorite RCDD. Go ahead and say it, chuck, you're my favorite. We're good to go. We are good to go.

Speaker 1: 0:22

This is gonna be an exciting show, okay, exciting show. I got so much to talk about and so little time to do it in. I don't know how I'm gonna do it all and just. I don't know how we're gonna do it, though we are going to do it. So, as we always start off every episode, right, every episode.

Speaker 1: 0:42

If you've been a member of this podcast for any period of time, you know I always start off with what are you drinking? This is an after-hours live show. You can drink anything you want, even the dull beverages, but Chuck's drinking water. I'm already hyped up. I don't need anything like that right now. Oh, my Lord, yeah, I'm drinking. Actually, I'm thinking back. Hold on, it's not water. It's not water. It's Zevia, rupir soda, that's right. No sugar, no coloring my favorite favorite things. So tell us in the chat box what are you drinking right now? Anthony's in the house. Anthony, lots of good stuff coming on this show. You better hang around. Lots of good stuff. So tell us in the chat box what are you drinking. Hold on, I gotta get back over to my live stream. I lost my live stream somewhere. There it is there, it is yes, yes. So, chat box, open it up. So let me see. Somebody here says, unfortunately, unsweetened tea. I saw the greatest meme. It said and I'm paraphrasing it because I can't remember exactly how it was worded it said something about there is nothing that compares to the disappointment a Southerner has when they take a big gulp of an unsweet tea. Yes, yes, right, so, absolutely yes. So again, we're drinking tea. Now you know if I've done the after hours thing.

Speaker 1: 2:04

I did the acronym challenge. So this acronym challenge, let me throw it up here real quick. Man, I really need to get my wife to help me with this stuff. I really really do.

Speaker 1: 2:14

Today's acronym challenge is TDMM. Helps when you put the microphone in front of your face, chuck. Tdmm what does that stand for? Anthony's drinking water, by the way. Tdmm what does that acronym stand for? Put your answer in the chat box. Oh, by the way, I also have to say my TDM message.

Speaker 1: 2:38

Please help them control the acronym population. Don't forget to spay or neuter your acronym. We have enough, we don't need any more. We don't, we don't. So let me see Nobody in TikTok has answered yet. Let me check the chat box if anybody has answered there yet. Let me see Nobody has ordered. Nope, nope, nope.

Speaker 1: 2:59

Oh man, old Sergeant, I got some bad news for you, buddy, in a second. It stands for telecommunications distributions methods manual. I'm sorry, telecommunications distribution methods manual. I always seem to throw in that extra S. I don't know why. I don't know why. Just you know I am who I am and sometimes it just, yeah, it just it rolls, it rolls. Now, why did I pick the TDM as my acronym for today? Does anybody know? Because the 15th edition TDM was released today. It was released today, january 25th 2024. Yes, they got lots of new stuff in it. They got some single pair ethernet connector stuff in it, some other stuff. I haven't read all the stuff in it yet. Which means good news and bad news.

Speaker 1: 3:50

If you're studying for your RC exam or you're gonna start studying, you're gonna have to buy the 15th edition Right now. If you go online to Bigsy, you can only purchase the hard copy. You can only purchase the hard copy. The electronic copy should be available, according to Bigsy, tomorrow. But yeah, just in case, I'd wait till Monday because you know things can happen. But here's that If you are going to the Bigsy conference, if you are going to the Bigsy conference and you purchase the 15th edition TDM, you will get a discount. Yes, if you're an RCDD, you will get a 30% discount if you purchase the TDM at the Bigsy conference. If you're a yet to be RCDD, you're gonna start studying for it. If you purchase it at the Bigsy conference, you will get a 25% discount. So I think it was like 325 for non-members. So 30% and 325. Hello, that's a chunk of change. That is a chunk of change.

Speaker 1: 4:52

Now, when I saw that email come across today, I was filled with questions. Filled with questions because you know that I just started a TDM study group. This is week two. We were doing it right after this live stream tonight, right Now. Look, here's some people who answered it. There you go. Ron got it, of course, michael got it.

Speaker 1: 5:16

I would have known that you got it. I thought that was because you're our favorite RCDD. I am your favorite RCDD, you're right. Right, yes, you can say it. So I was filled with lots of questions, right, because right now, you got a lot of people who had the 14th edition who were studying. You got people who have already applied for the RCDD exam. You got people who are studying the 14th edition. But have what do these guys do? So I reached out to Bigsy because inquiring minds got to know. Inquiring minds got to know. So, if you are studying for your 14th edition right now and you've already submitted your application to sit for the exam and that application was accepted, you have up to one year to take the test on the 14th edition. Okay, good news.

Speaker 1: 6:03

If you are studying for the 14th edition right now and you have not submitted your application, bixie will accept applications for the 14th edition RCD up until the 31st of May 2024. Now I suggest you don't wait till May 31st. I suggest you do it now. Okay, get it into books, get it accepted. Then you have a year from that date. Okay, a year from that date. Now, with that being said, the last exam, the last exam that they're going to do on the 14th edition, is the 1st of June 2025.

Speaker 1: 6:43

So if you're studying the 14th edition, even though the 15th just came out. Put your application in, get it accepted. That way you can still take it on the 14th, because if you wait, shathees in Hells, he'll tell you every single time that they come out with a new version of the TDMM. They add pages. Do it. That's more stuff you got to memorize, more stuff you have to memorize. Okay, great, great news. There is some other information as well, too. The version 15 applications will start to be accepted on the 1st of June 2024.

Speaker 1: 7:16

If you're looking to take a Bixie class, a Bixie instructor-led class, on the 14th edition, there will be no available after the 10th of June of 2024. Okay, the 2024. So keep that in mind. That's good news, isn't it? You can still so, if you're studying your RSED, you can still. You still have time, but you don't procrastinate. Don't procrastinate.

Speaker 1: 7:45

Speaking of Bixie, you know I'm going there. I'll be there Sunday, monday, tuesday, wednesday, all the way up to the end of the awards banquet, I'm doing a podcast meetup at 3 pm at the Big Bixie sign. If you've ever been to a Bixie conference, you know they always have the big sign, the Bixie letter, and people always kind of stand around and they take pictures and stuff. I will be there. I'll be there. I'll be there at the podcast meetup on the Tuesday at 3 pm and I will have stickers. As long as they last, as long as they last, I will have stickers. Okay, I only have like 200, so, yeah, try to be the first one there.

Speaker 1: 8:22

Did you get a chance to catch last week's show? Well, not last week, the Monday, the one that just came out. I had a special guest, henry Frank. Henry Frank, he participates on the standards committees and we had an instant conversation, number one, on volunteering for committees, whether they're the standards committees or the Bixie committees. But the show was about cable dressing. Should you dress your cable? Should you not dress your cable? Make sure you watch that show. It was a really, really, really good show. Now, next Monday show you don't want to miss that because it was a first for the podcast, right?

Speaker 1: 9:02

I recorded live at the POE consortium back in. I don't remember when it was. It was a couple of months ago, right? So that show's going to edit out, that show's going to be editing it now and it'll come out on Monday. I might even release it on Sunday, it kind of depends.

Speaker 1: 9:18

And it's a first for this podcast show because I recorded live. It's another first for the podcast because I had like six guests all at once. It's another first for the podcast because normally people look at my videos and they think it's really complicated. It's really just two video feeds it's my video feed and it's your video feed. You know who I'm interviewing and then I kind of put them together, the show as a POE consortium. I have three different camera feeds, seven different microphones. Yeah, it was a little bit above my skill sets, but I'm working through it. I'm working through it. So you're welcome for the information I absolutely pass along. You can actually watch this recorded video if you want to send this video to them as well, and they can always reach out to me too.

Speaker 1: 10:05

So I was answering somebody there on on TikTok, don't forget, you can purchase let's Talk Cabling merchandise, right? So I've got the page set up. Go to the link tree in the description there so you can buy. You can buy t-shirts, you can buy wire monkey shirts, anything that you ever see me wear, except for the RCD shirts, because you have to be an RCDD to get that. I'm selling them just to help kind of make some money for the, for the podcast, right? So there we go.

Speaker 1: 10:32

Oh, and one other thing I want to talk about before I move on, right? I've said this every time and I'm going to preach this until the end of time what's the big membership cost? Everybody know if top their head. I think it's like 135 bucks, I think. I think. I think that sounds about right.

Speaker 1: 10:50

What if I told you you could have a mentor for a year who has a big C RCDD, osp, dc, dc, you know, rtpm for that cost of that big C membership? Would you be interested? Because right now, as you know, I help volunteer on the committee for the Big C membership mentorship program and the beautiful thing is we have more mentors than we have mentees. Right, more mentors than mentees. So if you know somebody like the guy who just said in TikTok about the people studying, have them sign up for mentorship. You can scan this QR code right there, or you can go to the Big C website and look at the mentorship program. I'm going to leave that QR code up so, even though it kind of blocks my sign, but that's OK, mentorship is more important. Mentorship is more important, right? So now let's go ahead and move it. Oh, let's answer this question right here. Bum, bum, bum, here we go. So they'll expect me to have the 15th edition if I take the class looking for class in July. Sadly, I can't do it before then. Yeah, yeah, if you're going to take it after that date, yeah, you're going to have to get the 15th edition, unfortunately. Good question, chris, and I'll see you tonight.

Speaker 1: 12:23

And Shatya answered the question about the membership, the Big C membership. It costs $119 for a Big C membership and then you can get into the mentorship program as a mentee. But then you get all the other benefits. You get discounts on, for example, the TDM. It's 325 if you're a member and I think 375 or 350 or 375 if you're a nonmember. So there's advantages to it. There's absolutely advantages to it.

Speaker 1: 12:51

All right, so the subject of today's show wasn't about the TDM. It wasn't. The subject for today's show was the 10 most commonly asked estimating questions. Darrell, how you doing my friend Now, these questions are the most commonly questions I get about estimating and I could literally do a show about each of these questions, about each of these questions, but I've got to get through these things in 30 minutes or less because I've got a study group I'm running tonight. Several of them are in here tonight. Several of them are in here tonight, so let's go ahead and flip over to those questions. I remember how to do this again. I'm struggling through these platforms here. Sorry about that. One of these days I will actually talk to my wife and have running this stuff behind for me. So the first question is what factors should be considered when estimating the cost of a cabling project? Everything, everything.

Speaker 1: 13:50

You need to sit down and do your due diligence. You need to be detail oriented. You need to read the details. When I used to be an estimator and I would get a request for quote RFQ, a request for proposal, rfp I read through that thing twice before I even started to work on it. I read it the first time when I got it, just to kind of get an idea how big of a project it was, how much time it was going to involve. And then I waited a day, sometimes two, and then I would read it again, because when you read it the second time, that's when you really start picking out the details.

Speaker 1: 14:23

Right, because you need to know what is the scope of work. You need to know what is the size. Is this something that's going to be done by a two-man crew, a four-man crew, a 50-man crew, right? You need to know what types of quantities of cables are going to be needed, and you're going to get those from the blueprints, right. So you're going to sit down with the blueprints, you're going to determine all the different types they have, count them up.

Speaker 1: 14:47

If it's a job where you don't have blueprints, then you're probably going to have to walk around with the customer. They're going to have to identify where they want the drops at, and then you've got to come up with those footages. Sometimes you don't even get that. Sometimes you have to estimate a price without a blueprint and without a walkthrough. How do you do that? Well, you do that by when you write it up, you make an assumption on the average cable length so you can do an estimate based on an average run length of 150 feet. And then what you do is, in the terms of conditions and assumptions you put verbiage in there that this estimate is based on the average run length of 150 feet. We will monitor the test results and if the average goes above 150 feet, we reserve the right to bill for additional costs for material and labor. That's how you protect yourself. That's how you protect yourself, right?

Speaker 1: 15:42

Then you got to figure out your labor costs for the installation, Right. Is it going to be day shift, second shift, third shift? Is this going to be your cable pulling crew or is this going to be your fiber crew? You need to figure out what type of materials and what type of equipment. Are they going to need scissor lifts? Are they going to need a dumpster on site? This is all the kind of stuff that you need to know. So you need to know all of those details, all of those details.

Speaker 1: 16:09

Question number two it says how can one accurately determine the quantity and types of cables for a specific project? Well, it's kind of just answered that. Actually I kind of got ahead of myself. The blueprints is the best way and what I would do, and I didn't mention this a minute ago. But if you do an estimate off of a set of blueprints, make sure that you put in your response that your estimate is based on blueprints revision blah, blah, blah with the date revision. That way you tie your price to a specific print. Let's be honest and Daryl can tell us this, but you probably give me 100% we are always the last one to get the revised set of prints, always the last. So you want to make sure that your price is tied to a specific drawing that way, if they oh, that wasn't the right one, here's the other one. Well, there you go. My price is no longer null and void because it says right in my proposal it was based on this print, based on this day, this revision number, right. So make sure that you do that, make sure you understand the connectivity requirements.

Speaker 1: 17:11

I messed this up one time. I did a job for the federal government I won't say who it was and it was a classified site and I did the estimate for it and it was one of those really quick turnarounds. They gave it to us oh, we need this price backed by tomorrow, okay, and it was a very complicated design and I messed up the counts. Luckily for me, I'd actually doubled my counts. I doubled my counts Right. Hard to scrap a mountain life Document document document. That's pro tip number one on my list of pro tips. Document document document. Yes, good job, good job. So make sure that you really understand it, because had that been the other way, had I not had enough materials in it, I might have lost my job and the company would have lost money.

Speaker 1: 18:07

Also, consider future expansion Right, and then when you're putting in the support system, maybe overbuild. Actually, if you follow the standards, it says to design it for 30% growth. So put that in there, because the average lifespan of a structure cable plan is seven to 10 years. That doesn't mean the cable goes bad, it just means the customer buys new computers and they need better, faster cabling. But there are some cable systems that last, for they're still in use 30 years later. But when you look at overall they kind of get replaced because of the moving, constant moving forward of technology. So always make sure that you that you always make sure that you consider the future.

Speaker 1: 18:53

Okay, you also want to make sure that you have a comprehensive cable schedule. So again, clear again document, document, document. Put in the, the, the, the proposal, a cable, a cable schedule. It says look, here's the, this, these cables are going to this room, this cable is going to the right. Here's the average one leg. You are documenting what you found, documenting what you have found.

Speaker 1: 19:16

Question number three oh my gosh, we're at 720. I'm only on the third question. Oh my gosh. Hey, guys who are here, my study group tonight I might be late.

Speaker 1: 19:28

What are common challenges in estimating cabling, ict, cabling projects, and how can they be mitigated? Okay, so the the the biggest one is a constantly changing scope. That's why I like it when customers give me a written scope of work right, and it's documented, because I because now I know, because most bids are usually you're not a lot of times you're bidding against other contractors, so you want to make sure everybody's bidding the same document so that way you get a fair comparison. So you want to make sure that you know, if the, if the scope does change, that you make sure all the other people get notified of that change. You know you probably think, well, why should I care if the other contractors get notified about the scope change? Because you want them bidding the same thing. If they don't get that information, their price will be cheaper than yours and they'll probably win the job and they'll probably lose money because they didn't get that change.

Speaker 1: 20:24

Another big one unexpected site conditions, right, and I couldn't tell you how many times I've estimated a bid without the building even being there. I had to do it on assumptions and then I had to assume that the hallway, the, the, the ceilings were free and clear, the interstitial space was free and cleared to run the cables and then when the guys got on site, guess what? Somebody took our hallways right. You know clear communication with your clients. I kind of already touched base on it. Anytime you have a question, if you call them, follow that up with a confirmation email. If it's in a competitive bid scenario, issue out an RFI request for information and make sure that everybody gets notified of that right. And then also staying up on your industry trends. This is another one that happens. The artist is bad for this. You know. What about? What about Chuck? What about cat 6E? Cat 6E? There is no cat 6E in standards. Is there a cat 6E cable you can buy? Yes, but it's not in standards. It's not in standards.

Speaker 1: 21:30

Go on to question number four. Question number four what role does cable testing and certification play in the estimation process? Ed, the old tech guy's in the house, ed Ed. So the question number four what role does the cable testing and certification play in the estimation process? Okay, you have to do it. You got to understand what is the requirement. Do they want certification, qualification or just verification? Because those are three different testers and those are three different tests and three different time values and three different level of technicians. You need to understand that A lot of customers they don't care about the certification, they just want a continuity test. Dude and I can train two cable monkeys to how to do a continuity test in matter minutes and have them rock through a job site Certification a little different. That tester costs a lot more money. You have to have somebody who knows how to run that tester. That's a more experienced technician, that's somebody who's going to cost a little bit more. So make sure that you understand that. Make sure you understand the true cost of testing equipment. A lot of people don't get this.

Speaker 1: 22:42

The certifiers, the cable certifiers, those permanent link heads, have a lifespan, usually about 5,000 insurances. They are a consumable. Consumable Now, consumable means that it's going to be part of this lifecycle, or maybe all of its lifecycle will get used up on the project. I'll give you an example. If you're estimating how to terminate a job that terminates fiber, let's say it's an old school where they're doing two-part epoxy and they're polishing stuff. Well, you've got to factor in polishing pads, chem wipes. All that stuff is going to get used up during the job. That's called a consumable.

Speaker 1: 23:24

So your tester heads are also consumables. So the best way to do this find out how much it costs to replace your tester heads. Call the manufacturer. They'll give you the price and then ask them how many life cycles is this good for? They'll tell you that too. Now all you got to do is take that dollar value, divide it by the number test that they say those heads are good for, and now you have a consumable number.

Speaker 1: 23:49

So if you have a project that has 150 cables, you put it in your line. 150 labor, whatever your time value is five minutes, seven minutes, 10 minutes, 15 minutes, whatever it is and then on the material side, you put in that little bit of a stipend for each test. So that way, when you win up enough project where you've tested 5000 insertions, you brought in enough money to buy a new set of heads. It's a consumable. It's a consumable. And also those testers, especially the certifiers. The certifiers have to be calibrated once a year. Yeah, once a year. So if you're a big company, you got multiple testers. That's not a big deal. But if you're a small company where you only have one tester, you might have to factor in the cost to ship those testers, the cost to rent an additional tester to hold you over while yours is getting calibrated.

Speaker 1: 24:46

These are things that you got to think about. That's what you got to think about. Question Excuse me, I got the hiccups. Question number five. Question number five how do you count for factors like cable routing, cable trays and conduit in the estimation of cabling projects?

Speaker 1: 25:03

So on the conduit side of this, I've never estimated conduit. I've always got subcontractors to do. I would call up my local electricians. Here's the blueprints Give me the price for the conduit. So I take that price and put my markup on it. Boom, put it in, put it in. So there's a guy that I'm collaborating with, jeff the 360 electrician. I asked him if he could come on tonight and talk about how to estimate conduit, because he's an electrician. He actually has two shops, one in California, one in Wyoming but he was traveling so he couldn't do it tonight. So I asked him if he could create a video. Maybe I can make a short video content out of that. So I can't talk about the conduit Now.

Speaker 1: 25:49

Let's talk about the other things the cable routing. So the cable routing, the key is look at all the other prints, look at the electricians prints, look at the HVAC prints, look at the fire sprinkler prints, find out where they're going, what hallways you're going to be routing through, because you don't want to route through the same ones. So you've got to consider that. You've got to consider that and then you have to understand the kind of cable. Or are you putting in cat 5e, cat 6. Cat 6a Did you know that cat 6a cable can weigh up to as much as double of 5e? It can, absolutely can. A thousand feet of 5e is about 20 pounds, 18 to 20 pounds. There are some older cat 6a cables that are still on the market that weigh 40 pounds per thousand feet.

Speaker 1: 26:45

Cat 6a is typically 23 gauge. Cat 5e is 24 gauge. It's more copper. Sometimes you have the cross web separator inside of it. Sometimes you've got the full shield inside of it. So it does just cost more. So you might have to put in a more robust system. See when your material weighs more.

Speaker 1: 27:02

Let's talk about J-hooks. So the standard is four to five feet of random distances. If you're putting in a bunch of category 5e, category 5e, a bunch of category 6a, you might want to bring those J-hooks closer together, maybe to three or four feet, maybe one to two feet, depending on how many are going through that because of all the extra weight. If you just go by the industry standard four to five feet apart, you will lose out on your material side. You will lose out on your labor side. Right, that's how you do that. And then, once you've got your hallways lined out and here's a tip If you're not really good at estimating cable, tray, ladder, rack, most of the manufacturers will help you come up with a bill of materials. So if you send them the prints, they will kind of say, okay, here's what you're going to need, and they'll give you bill of materials. And then you can take that, always double check it, always double check it, and then put that in your estimating sheet and you're rocking on and put your labor values to it.

Speaker 1: 28:05

Speaking of labor values, so a lot of times when you're estimating, here's the thing as an estimator I could not estimate how long it took me to do something, how long it took me to terminate a jack, how long it took me to test a jack, because not everybody could terminate a jack as fast as I could when I was in my prime. I'm not trying to say that to Wag McDale, but we all know this. There are some people who are really good at stuff and there's other people who just kind of meander and get the way through it. You have to use an average, an average. So keep that in mind and there's a way that you can figure that out.

Speaker 1: 28:40

You know, if you're a owner of a company or an estimator and you win a project and go out to the project, you know once or twice while it's going on and look at you, just kind of watch, you know, see how long it takes them to terminate stuff. And then time, you know, don't let them know your time because they'll alter their behavior. And what I used to do is I would do a QA inspection and then I would review it with the foreman on the site. Now, I would always do it somewhere where I can keep an eye on the crew and I said, okay, they're starting at that piece of furniture. And then I would talk to my project manager I'll talk about the QA and stuff like that. When I got done, I'd see where they were. I said, okay, I know there's three jacks per place. Bam, bam, bam, that's you know X amount of jacks and so on and so forth. So they're doing their jacks in X period of time. Right, that's how you do that.

Speaker 1: 29:29

Got a question in here on TikTok. I agree with the factor in the hourly price. What do you got, think, a factor in the HR price, hr price, what? The HR price, hr price, what's it? Oh, home run price. Oh, okay, I've never heard that before. Home run price.

Speaker 1: 29:49

I know some people who do estimate per drop and some people I my preference is always to estimate per foot because it's going to be more accurate. But there's some people say, okay, well, you know, as a general cat, 5e one drop $125. Okay, you know, just keep in mind that your runs aren't always going to be the same length. They're not always going to be drop tile ceiling. Sometimes you have to run through a solid ceiling, sometimes you have to go over things, go under things. So that's why I'm not a big fan of the per drop price. I'm not a big fan of that, not a big fan.

Speaker 1: 30:27

So that's my question what is the significance of compliance with industry standards and codes when estimating cabling projects? Wow, wow, holy smokes. A number one always follow the code, always follow the code. You don't have a choice in the matter, you don't. And if you enter into a contract with a customer and the contract stipulates that your work will have to meet or exceed the standards. Now you have to follow the standards. So you have to be thoroughly knowledgeable of both codes and standards codes and standards. That's why I'm always doing what I'm doing, man, I'm always out here trying to tell people.

Speaker 1: 31:13

Somebody asked me one of the social media groups early. I told you I'm in tons of them. And somebody asked about what was it? Oh, they're talking about running cables to VoIP. So there's a system where it's a phone, you run one category, you go to cable to it, it's got a pass through and then that could connect into the computer. So one cable ran both the phone and the computer. And then somebody asked about well, doesn't the standard say you have to do two cables per? So I responded yes, the standards do say you shall run two cables per phase plate, one for voice, one for data. But you got to understand the word shall is a requirement, but standards are voluntary. You are not required necessarily to follow the standards. You don't have to.

Speaker 1: 32:04

Now, if you want to be the best installer, if you want to be the best company, yes, you want to follow the codes, you want to follow the standards. You want to follow the best practices, because that's what the winners do. That's what the winners do. Yeah, your project is going to cost a little money, but your quality will be much better and that's going to help you a lot. Somebody says do Daisy Chain the same money? Well, technically, I guess that is kind of a Daisy Chain, isn't it? Yeah, daisy Chain is something I have to do, a show. Actually I did do a show on topologies. I talked about Star Buzz and Ring. That was a few years ago. I might have to do a, put out an extra episode next week on the Bigsy and do a repeat on that show. It's going to be kind of funny because you'll see how much I've gotten better at presenting and you'll see the different studio and a bunch of other stuff like that.

Speaker 1: 32:58

So you got to make sure that you understand the codes and the standards. So the best way to do that is to get a copy of the standard, read the standard, participate in standard committees, talk to professionals, attend classes, just be current with it. That's the best thing to do. It really is. Moving on to the next question how can an estimator accurately forecast a timeline for completing a queuing project. Okay, that's not as hard as it sounds, because when you're creating an estimate, you're creating a bill of materials and a labor values. So you can literally total up all your labor values, and you can. You'll get the number of hours in the job and then all you got to do is figure out crew assignments. Am I doing a two-person crew, a four-person crew, right, something like that? And you can, through some calculations, you can figure out oh, this project should take three days, this project should take three weeks, this project should take three years. Absolutely, I've done.

Speaker 1: 33:55

I have done estimates on projects that have spanned multiple years, multiple years, as a matter of fact, 20 years, 20 years, doing an amazing job. Player one is really neglected in the field. Thank you, yes, it is absolutely neglected. You know, I was talking to somebody just the other day and they said I told them I had a podcast, and they go you have a podcast, what's it about? And I said Gabling. And they go oh, whatever it's like. Okay, and this was a guy in the field, he was in the ICT industry, the ICT industry, yeah, so, yeah, you can total all that up and then, and then there are some trips, trips and trips, tips and tricks Can't talk today that you can do it.

Speaker 1: 34:39

So a lot of times, you know customers sometimes will come back and say, hey, can you knock off some money off that estimate? Yeah, but what I would do is I would find ways to make myself more efficient. So if I had a project that was running like, say, a month, well, if I went to four tens, I could save a little bit on my setup and tear downtime and drop the price a little bit, but yet I still had the same amount of hours in the project for the actual work itself. So the price will come down a little bit because I'm really happy, but yet I'm still getting the same stuff.

Speaker 1: 35:12

You also need to consider the availability of your workforce, especially if you you know, if you get a larger company, you know you can't always assume that your best crew, your best copper crew, your best fiber crew, can do that project. They might be on a secure job site somewhere, right, it might be. And so you've got to keep that in mind when you're doing it and also consider the complexity of the job. The complexity, because the more involved it is, there's a certain amount of time you actually can, you can actually look at isn't actually in project management methodologies. You can see how a project kind of scales up where people kind of it gets better, better and faster and faster as people become more acclimated to the project. The more variables, the more things there are. That takes time. I did a project once, an estimated project once, where we had 35 different types of work area outlets, 35 different types. You know what. That takes time to learn that and then be efficient with that.

Speaker 1: 36:14

Question number eight oh man, I really got to get in gear here. Question number eight what are some time cost saving strategies that can be incorporated? And then, yes, I already told you one go to four tens. That's one I used to do quite often. Another one, and I just told this one, I just did this one in the in another group that I'm in and I said use a 2000 foot pull up instead of doing a 1000 foot spool. And here's why Think about this.

Speaker 1: 36:44

If you've ever pulled cable you know there's always a little bit left in the box or on the spool after the job. If you're really good, that number will be below 50 feet, but sometimes it's between 50 and 100. Sometimes it's between 125. That's wasted money. Let's say that you have. If you use a 2000 foot pull up, and when you got done you had 125 feet, if you had two 1000 foot pull ups you would have 250 feet left over. You've doubled your waste. There's always waste in a project.

Speaker 1: 37:12

When you estimate, you do all your calculations, you say, okay, I need, I need 10,000 feet of cable. There's a factor and a commonly one uses 10%. Yeah, I just kind of depend on which one I use, depending on the project, but 10%. So you would take 10,000, multiply that by 10%, you put in, you would buy 11,000 feet of cable, because you know by the time you got done you'd have 125 feet left on 10 spools. Well, that's a thousand feet of cable that you had to buy. You have to calculate. That is part of the process. Part of the process. And then another one is optimize your labor allocations. Right, so you know, is it going to be the same crew all the way through, the same two, three, four guys, or are you going to have a copper specialized crew doing the copper and a fiber specialized to do the fiber? There's a ways that you can, because they're going to be more efficient, because they've developed the skill sets for that Question, number nine, 638.

Speaker 1: 38:09

How do you handle contingency planning and ICT cable project and estimates To account for unforeseen issues? Yes, yes, yes, yes. Cost mitigation, risk management yes, that's how you do it. That's how you do it. So what you do is there's a bunch of different ways and if you have the opportunity to ever take the project management class at Bigsy, I highly recommend it, especially if Chris Hobbs is teaching the class. Chris Hobbs is a fantastic instructor and I highly recommend it. I highly suggest it if you get the opportunity to do that, because there's certain ways that you can say okay, well, we're going to be doing this project in December in Detroit.

Speaker 1: 38:50

Well, guess what? What's the weather patterns in Detroit? What happens when there's so much snow that you can't get to the job site? What happens? Maybe not even Okay. Here's one what if you're doing a project in Miami in January but the cable that you're buying or the cable tray that you're buying, or some product that you're buying is coming from some place that's frozen and they have a big blizzard Guess what. That's going to delay that product getting built, that product getting shipped, that product arriving on your job site? You got to think about this cause.

Speaker 1: 39:23

Well, what happens is is can you shift the workloads around and do other things until that material come in? See, if you think about it ahead of time, you're already two steps ahead in the game. Two steps ahead in that game. So you can actually, and once you start doing that, you can start assigning dollar values to that. You know, okay, we're going to need extra hours, we might have to work. Second shift you might have to need, you might need a specific piece of equipment, right, right, somebody says we'll, we'll call Graybar and start staging. Yeah, oh, absolutely, I'll try to talk to Graybar when I'm there. Did you know Graybar has a podcast? Did you know that? It's called keep the light on. Keep the light on. I met the. I've been on his show and he's been on my show, I think I'm. And I met him at the, the Nica Bixie Summit. Yeah, and then also, make sure that your project stays on budget. Stays on budget. Last question, man, I got to get this done soon.

Speaker 1: 40:24

What are some key considerations when providing an estimate for an ICT cable project? Return on investment. So this is one of those weird kind of questions. Right, because the return on the investment means, as for a cable contractor is you're expending labor and material to put a cable system in at somebody's place and you're expecting to get paid a certain dollar value and you hope, when time you get done, doing all the math that you've had, you've got more money left in your bucket than you spent on labor, material and other direct costs. The return on investment is a different thing for the actual end user. So the key is, you know, always monitor the productivity of your tax and I know technicians don't like to fill out time sheets that well.

Speaker 1: 41:11

You got to break down not just we got to do more than just say I worked eight hours at, you know, project ABC. What'd you do for those eight hours? What did you get done? Did you do you what you really should be doing? This kind of ties in with with estimating, because you're estimating at the, at the people that you're estimating at the, at the piece level. You can concrete together, say, okay, well, if you're estimating that you should be able to pull, you know, 10,000 feet of cable a day when you're out on a job site. When you got done, did you get, did you pull, 10,000 feet of cable a day? If you did, great. If you didn't, why not Understand, why not? So that way you can make the adjustment on future projects. So that's that's the key. You got to understand, you got to make sure that you cover all those things and you pay attention so you can make those, those changes. Sometimes the change is good. Sometimes the changes are not so good.

Speaker 1: 42:02

If you are a large company where you might have multiple offices, you're not just a small operation working out of, you know, out of your own one single office. Your big company that has multiple offices, come together once a year and have meetings and On those meetings you know, talk about, obviously, where you're gonna go in the future, what, what vertical markets you want to chase, but also Also have each office pick one project that went bad and have them go in detail and explain here's the project, here's what we were asked to do, here's what happened, here's why it went bad, here's the results of that and here's how we fixed it. And then what'll happen is, you know it's like, oh, it's great, I got to tell the people that I made mistakes. Yes, everybody makes mistakes. If you've been in this industry for longer than 13 minutes, you have made a mistake. In this industry, the key is to learn from that mistake. And if you, when you're doing that as a group setting with other other offices, right, well, you, you're, everybody's being rose up. So now, when, that, when the other office might do a project and they run the same scenario, they are already they. Well, you know what Chuck and his office had, this issue and that's how they solved it. You're already a step up because you've already you already talked about, you've already had it done, you already have the, the plan configured right.

Speaker 1: 43:15

So those were my 10 tests, my 10 estimating questions. Oh, I gotta go back to my chat box. I didn't sorry. Well, sometimes when I get on a roll, it just happens Luke is in the house, hello, luke, chuck Wilson's in the house. Chuck Wilson's right down the road from me. He says a US individual membership is US individual membership, 1992, a year. That doesn't sound right. That doesn't say you sure about those numbers, chuck. Let me see here. Andrew, well, I'm glad to know about the cost associated with testing. Yeah, that's, a lot of people miss that one. A lot of people miss that one.

Speaker 1: 43:52

What's a good percentage to add after your estimate? How do you count for ways? I've already covered that, michael. So for cable to 10% Labor, I wouldn't go so much because, see, you're a real risk. And on project is the labor side. That's the unknown. I mean, well, the material is a little bit of an unknown, but labor is the big one. That's when you really got watch out for so. So what I would, typically we do is, you know, 5% for the labor because it's a bigger dollar value, and 10% on my materials.

Speaker 1: 44:22

J who's in the house, greetings from Chicago, chicago, and as long as you don't go for 20. Yeah, exactly, let me see what's the what's the most here. What's up tech family and j who, again, j who's a really, really good guy. And then Chuck Wilson again took typing in separate the dollar amount From the year oh, 199. Yeah, yeah, that he's talking about the big see membership. Sign up for the big see membership.

Speaker 1: 44:46

Go to the become, go to the mentorship program, get a quality, quality mentor, quality mentor of. I was actually a mentor the first two years I've. I didn't really got, I haven't really volunteered to be a mentor this year but I probably will. But you know, you know, so you get people like me are CDs, you know. And, and I said DC, dc said sign up for the mentorship program. It's a great way to get an education. Learn from somebody else's mistakes, that's the key, so you don't have to make those same mistakes, right? How fantastic is that? All right, guys. So don't forget, check out the peo, a consortium Video coming out on Sunday night or Monday night, one of those two nights and let me know how I did on the on, on the editing on that, because, like I said, it was a monster. It was a monster, but I'm enjoying it.

Speaker 1: 45:36

I'm a glutton for punishment sometimes and I hope to see everybody at the big C conference next week.

Speaker 1: 45:42

Again. I'll be there Sunday, monday, tuesday and Wednesday. If you see me walking around, stop me and say hi to me. Some people say I do when I do was talking to I do. I like to talk to people. If you see me talking to somebody else, come up and stand right there with us, right? If it's a, if it's a conversation where you know we're talking about some stuff that might not you know, then I'll say can you give us a minute? But if I don't feel free to stand there, absolutely, and then say hi to me, okay, alrighty, all right.

Speaker 1: 46:13

So Michael Michael said he applied as a mentee, nice, nice. Well, I hope it wouldn't be kind of cool if they signed you to me as your mentor mentee, wouldn't it be kind of cool? All right, j, who was in Shebaugin? I don't know what that means. It's a town, I guess. All right, everybody. I'm already way past my 30 minute mark. I am 646. I have to go eat dinner and Start to conduct my RCD study group at 7 pm. So until next time, everybody, remember, knowledge is power.